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Anybody up for boycotting Barilla Pasta?

 
 
Mame
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 12:37 pm
@firefly,
So what? This doesn't involve either of us except that you're boycotting Barillo and I intend to buy it. I believe in free speech but apparently you only do when you agree with it.

Why should everyone agree with either of us? I don't agree with his sentiments but I do believe he has the rights to what he believes.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 12:37 pm
@firefly,
even if?? it already is fading. too many americans think that businessmen should have the right to run their businesses as they see fit. I also think that americans have grown tired of the fanaticism of the gay rights pressure groups.

I am done here unless this proves to be wrong. I am rarely wrong.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 12:43 pm
The article by Antonucci referred to in this column is the one in my previous post.
Quote:
How the Barilla campaign is helping fight homophobia in Italy
9/30/2013
by John Aravosis

...I’ve been working in gay civil rights advocacy at the national (and international) level for twenty years now. And there’s always someone who’s utterly convinced that A) any particular campaign we’re working on is silly, and B) our tactics are dumb.

The most recent example was with the Russian vodka boycott that, I’d argue, was primarily responsible for exploding internationally the story of Vladimir Putin’s crackdown on gay and trans people in Russia (a story that was nowhere on the radar for two years, and now is everywhere). The naysayers were convinced the boycott was a dumb idea that wouldn’t accomplish our goals, until of course it did.

And the same thing is now happening with Barilla.

A lot of people, most people in fact, don’t really understand politics or political activism. And it’s only natural that they don’t. Every vocation carries with it a certain expertise, and not everyone can be good at everything. Boy did I learned that lesson the summer I tried to wait tables between my undergrad and law school. I was a disaster at it. I had never before so appreciated how difficult it is, or the particular skills you must have (memory and multi-tasking come to mind), to be an effective server in a restaurant. I certainly know it now.

And the same thing goes for advocacy. It takes a particular skillset to be able to pick the right issue, and craft the right campaign, in order to achieve a particular, well-chosen, political goal. The skillset involves a lot of PR and marketing savvy, for starters, but it’s also about knowing how to fight: about knowing how, and how much, to beat the cr*p out of someone, or some company, in order to achieve a particular goal.

If you do advocacy the right way, it’s a lot more complicated than it appears on its face. Like anything done well, it should appear simple on its face. But if it’s done right, it’s really not.

Take the Russian vodka boycott. To the naysayers, the boycott was about economically hurting Stolichnaya vodka, which they said we couldn’t accomplish, nor would it matter. To those of us behind the boycott (Dan Savage announced it, Queer Nation took it and ran with it), the goal of the boycott had little to do with Stolichnaya. Stoli was simply a foil (a well-deserving foil, I might add, since they are a Russian vodka, and up until our protest didn’t even have an LGBT non-discrimination policy, let alone partner benefits). They were a means to an end that had nothing to do with hurting Stoli financially. The goal was to use Stolichnaya’s rather famous Russian-name as a means of catapulting the oppression of Russian gays in to the public consciousness – of using Stoli as a PR hook for the media and the public at large. And it worked.

Which takes us back to Barilla. If you think this campaign is about spaghetti (or that Chick-fil-A was about chicken), then you don’t know a lot about politics or effective political advocacy. Corporations are central to our civil rights battle. Sometimes because they take the lead in promoting our civil rights and setting an example for others (most people don’t realize that as “evil” as companies can sometimes be, they’ve often have led the way on gay civil rights – Microsoft and Apple come to mind). But sometimes even bad business are helpful, as mentioned above, because they provide a perfect foil for fixing a specific problem in that company, and sending a larger message to corporations, and all people, around the world.

Take Barilla. There were multiple things going on in my head when I first heard about what their chairman said:

1. They’re a huge international company with big brand name appeal. People will know them, and be ticked when they hear what the chairman did. That means this story has the potential to get big, fast. Thus, it’s a good story from a PR perspective.

2. The chairman was talking about not wanting to put gays – gay families, specifically – in his advertising. This is an ongoing problem for our community, visibility (though it’s improved over the years). Having gay families appear in TV commercials helps to establish that we are a normal part of the American, Italian, and every other “family.” And that message is priceless in terms of advancing our civil and human rights.

3. If we make a lesson out of Barilla, the ripple effect on other companies, in terms of biting their anti-gay tongue, but more importantly, their understanding that the gay, and gay-friendly, market is now huge and powerful, and the haters, not so much.

4. We had a chance to help the LGBT community in Italy. What an interesting twist on globalization to potentially use the fact that a homophobic Italian company is so vested in foreign markets that it now much curtail its home-grown bigotry in order to survive globally.

That last point was laid out far more beautifully than I by Lorenza Antonucci in Slate. Antonucci explains how homophobia and hate speech are regular occurrences in official public Italian life – she calls it a “system of legitimized public homophobia.” And the international response to Barilla emboldened Italian civil rights advocates in a way that’s rarely happened before.

A good, smart civil rights campaign is about far more than pasta or vodka or chicken sandwiches.

It’s about changing the culture, and pushing the entire world in the direction of more freedom and more tolerance.

That’s not to say that every advocacy campaign, or boycott, is well thought out or wise. They’re often not, and this is why I’m so critical of sites like Change.org. Taking 15 seconds to pen a petition is not “change.” If anything, it undercuts true, effective advocacy by creating a lot of white noise, and a lot of useless “action” that empowers people to smugly do nothing of value.

But that’s a post for another day. What I wanted to do today was highlight Antonucci’s column, and give you a sense of how important all of our work is, in ways that sometimes we don’t even fully comprehend. In a real way, we all helped advance the cause of civil rights in Italy last week, potentially helping millions of people become slightly more free. And that’s gotta count for something.

http://americablog.com/2013/09/barilla-campaign-helping-fight-homophobia-italy.html
Mame
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 12:50 pm
@firefly,
Again, so what? This doesn't involve either of us. I couldn't care less about rights movements or political agendas of any kind. I'm not a crusader. I have my beliefs and one of them is that we can believe what we want without persecution. What Guido said wasn't terrible... There may be a bit of a backlash but I suspect it will be a nine days wonder. Even if not, who cares? The gay community is large enough to not need my help, and no one will succeed in pressuring me not to buy that pasta. In this case, the bullied have become the bullies.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 01:10 pm
@Mame,
Quote:
So what? This doesn't involve either of us except that you're boycotting Barillo and I intend to buy it. I believe in free speech but apparently you only do when you agree with it.

I've made it very clear, throughout this thread, that I'm not boycotting Barilla, so where did you get the idea that I am doing that?

I agree with free speech. That doesn't mean I'd support a company if I disagreed with their policies, or if I was offended by them, or if I felt they were socially harmful.

I just don't feel that Guido Barilla's comments really justify a boycott of his company's products. I think he's become a scapegoat and is being used to gain publicity and sympathy for the LGBT rights movement, particularly in Italy. That's also what the last two articles I posted also suggest.

I don't disagree with the need to publicize the situation for LGBT's in Italy, because it does sound abominable, so I can wholeheartedly sympathize with the cause. I'm just not sure I want to support the actual boycott in this particular case. I think the publicity and media attention has already served its purpose. I know considerably more about the situation for LGBT's in Italy than I ever knew before, and so do many other people outside of Italy. But I also don't feel that which brand of pasta I buy in the U.S. is really going to significantly alter that situation in any meaningful way--I buy very little pasta. I think I'm doing more by helping to bring attention to the situation in Italy through my posts in this thread. It's not just Barilla, it's the fact that openly homophobic speech and attitudes are so widely acceptable in Italy. And there has been an increase in the number of acts of violence against homosexuals in Italy which such public speech may be helping to fuel.
Quote:
I couldn't care less about rights movements or political agendas of any kind. I'm not a crusader...

Well I do care about human rights issues, and on that score I do consider myself a crusader, so we do differ in that regard. I'm just not convinced I should join this particular boycott.
firefly
 
  6  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 01:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I am rarely wrong.

http://forums.startreknewvoyages.com/Smileys/classic/AnimMouse.gif

Thanks for the laugh, Hawkeye.
Rockhead
 
  5  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 01:20 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
I am rarely able to admit I'm wrong.

http://forums.startreknewvoyages.com/Smileys/classic/AnimMouse.gif

(I fixed it for him)
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 01:53 pm
@Mame,
Actually it does have to do with me.
I've had out-there gay friends since 1974 - and before that I was slow to get it, famously slow and ignorant, I knew to myself, when I did.

No, I'm not even nattering at my grocer re my thoughts on Barilla brand (reasonably good pasta in contrast to some, a goofy to me gaffe that was honest, but I'll not be buying it).

Barilla sure has a right to speak, when pushed in an interview, his opinion that sounded disdainful to me, but was primarily pro the emblematic italian cultural mode of family and mama. That mama role has had very long term effects there, and as I've gone on before, family as a concept is giant there, or at least has been.

I don't have to like the don't like it, don't buy it comment, though with his explained take I get his saying that.
Others have a right to react with boycott-calling, especially italian lgbts.
Others will be fine with lgbts but buy since they don't like the boycott idea.
People like me will just switch dried pasta brands.

There's been a lot of talk about bullying on this thread, and that has gone both ways.

We all are speaking freely, no?
0 Replies
 
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Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 02:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You give Whackeye credit for an intelligence he has never displayed in these fora. There is nothing in what he posted to authorize such an interpretation. But then, you've never let little quibbles about accuracy interfere with your rants.
Foofie
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 04:05 pm
Why can't gays have their own brand of pasta called, "Fellatio"? The advertisements can have a male "sucking up" one long strand of the "best pasta for the discerning LGBT community 'member'" (no pun intended).

I would think that the under 40 crowd would buy "Fellatio" brand pasta, so "the best revenge is success."

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 09:29 pm
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Self professed "crusaders" make me, I'm sorry, grin.

In context, this idiotic issue couldn't be more irrelevant.

But silly people will try to make this a serious issue.

Unfortunately, in today 's world , silly people have serious influence.

Tyranny of The Silly: The end of Western civilization
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 30 Sep, 2013 10:07 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You give Whackeye credit for an intelligence he has never displayed
in these fora. There is nothing in what he posted to authorize such an interpretation.
I don't choose to join in your insolence.
If the foundation of the putative rights were not to be found in statute,
then WHAT can their source be? ?? Contract?





David
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Oct, 2013 01:43 am
@firefly,
True, you did say you weren't boycotting Barillo. Sorry, that was so many posts ago, I'd forgotten

What's bugging me is how this became another gay rights issue.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 1 Oct, 2013 01:50 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Insolence? You suggest that it is impertinent to tell you you are wrong? I call that monumental conceit. According to Whackeye the foundation of these putative rights (a good term, given how vague his claim is) is to be in the disapproval of what he is pleased to call the "collective." There is nothing n what he wrote which authorizes a claim about action by the government.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 1 Oct, 2013 03:26 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Insolence?
Yes; u explicitly insulted Hawkeye 's intelligence.
If I failed to dissociate myself from that, then it wud appear (in error)
that I joined in impugning his mind. I do not.



Setanta wrote:
You suggest that it is impertinent to tell you you are wrong?
No. I was not the victim of your rudeness.



Setanta wrote:
I call that monumental conceit.
According to Whackeye the foundation of these putative rights
(a good term, given how vague his claim is) is to be in the disapproval
of what he is pleased to call the "collective."
IF he asserted that claim, then I missed it.
He can speak for himself. Let 's see what he says.




Setanta wrote:
There is nothing n what he wrote which authorizes a claim
about action by the government.
I surmise that he has statutory gay rights in mind,
the same as the racial situation in the contemplation of law.
If he does not, then I don t know what authority he envisions
as the source of the rights that he attributes to homosexuals.
LET THE RECORD SHOW that I 'm NOT anti-gay.





David
0 Replies
 
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tsarstepan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2013 01:50 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

LOL only five vote downs for telling the truth concerning the history of the gay rights movement?

Amazing..............

Wow! So where did you get your PHD in history from when you wrote this highly scholarly/well researched four paragraph dissertation? So you boiled how many decades worth of political and social strife to under 178 words? That's damn impressive. Who needs subtlety and nuanced when it comes to large scale social history?

BRAVO! I think the entire gay population of the US needs to read this singular post of yours and basically sign over all of their rights right now. When you're right, you're right. All gay men should accept their second class social status. Will lesbians be accepted under this revised social structure? I hear that conservative white men really dig the theory of lesbians ... albeit they keep they're lifestyles hidden from public and their sex in readily accessible online as porn.

BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2013 03:25 pm
@tsarstepan,
I agree that more people should know the facts on this subject gay or not gay that can be found in any library let alone the internet concerning the gay right movement history.

I remember years ago just happening to come across an NPR interview of the granddaughter of Dr. Spiegel the prime mover in getting the American Psychiatric Association to change the DSM to delisted homosexual as an disorder.

Her telling how as an old man Dr. Spiegel came out of the closet by bringing a must must younger man to his 70 family birthday party as his date/lover.

Quote:

http://www.mindofmodernity.com/not-sick-the-1973-removal-of-homosexuality-from-the-dsm

The report is given by Alix Spiegel, whose grandfather, Dr. John P. Spiegel, was president-elect of the American Psychiatric Association in 1973 when this historic change took place. Alix describes the family myth – that grandpa had single-handedly changed the APA’s position on homosexuality and removed one of the major barriers to equal rights for homosexuals in America. The truth, she says, is actually much more complicated. Though he did play a role in this historic change, ‘grandpa’ was not the driving force his family believed him to be, nor were his motives simply those of dedicated psychiatrist and champion of human rights. In Alix Spiegel’s words:
… this version of events was discarded anyway. Discarded after the family went on vacation to the Bahamas to celebrate my grandfather’s 70th birthday. I remember it well. I also remember my grandfather stepping out from his beach front bungalow on that first day followed by a small well-built man, a man that later during dinner my grandfather introduced to a shocked family as his lover, David. David was the first of a long line of very young men that my grandfather took up with after my grandmother’s death. It turned out that my grandfather had had gay lovers throughout his life, had even told his wife-to-be that he was homosexual, two weeks before their wedding. And so in 1981 the story that my family told about the definition in the DSM changed dramatically.


In any case here is some links

The NPR audio of the interview of the granddaughter.

part one

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2007/08/aim_20070804.mp3

part two

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2007/08/aim_20070811.mp3
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2013 03:37 pm
I wrote a post on this thread a couple of hours ago, starting out with the words tangent warning in red. And then deleted it.

I put what I thought was a link to the recent New Yorker article by Ariel Levy about Edith Windsor and the supreme court decision -
and the article turned out to be locked for non-subscribers after a paragraph or three, dammit. My link, I found, was just to a slide show.

I subscribed to the NYer recently, some enticing deal for 25 weeks, so I could read it on paper. Anyway, I learned a lot I didn't know from the article, and I had thought I knew a fair amount of the history just by living and learning from friends (one died of aids) and by reading on the history.

The article, should you run across a New Yorker of this week - http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/09/30/130930fa_fact_levy
0 Replies
 
 

 
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