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Who Can Afford Medical School?

 
 
Miller
 
Reply Tue 20 Aug, 2013 10:26 pm
A look at the website for the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago indicates that a medical education at this school ( and many others ) is a very costly affair.

For the years : 2012-2016 at Northwestern's Medical School:

The acutal and projected costs are:

Year 1: $77,961
Year 2: $73, 825
Year3: $81,304
Year4 $77,566

Total: $310,656

Obviously, the very wealthy can probably afford this costly education.

But what about kids from the middle class, and those at the lower levels of the middle class as well as kids from poverty stricken families?

Is there any hope for them relative to paying for medical education?

Is medicine still a profession for only wealthy, white males? ( Entering class for NW Medical school is about 40% white with a total enrollment of about 60% males and 40% females.
 
Foofie
 
  3  
Reply Wed 21 Aug, 2013 07:12 am
@Miller,
Does the military pay for one's education, if one has the needed academic grades, and then commits to an enlistment upon becoming an MD?

Anyway, with HMO's, and fewer private practices, many doctors are not even earning large annual amounts of money. So, paying off a loan, based on more nominal earnings, can be a demotivator to a medical career.

Then there are foreign medical schools. Not everyone's preference.

So, the problem, in my opinion, is not who gets to play doctor, but whether there are enough doctors to treat all the patients in society. You might have put the emphasis on the wrong syl-la-ble?

But, if you want to focus on the poorer intelligent child that has been telling adults, since kindergarten, that he/she wants to succor the sick and lame, then why must society treat the child's wishes with such concern?

The expedient answer, in my opinion, is to have physician's assistants (ex-nurses perhaps) do much of the work that doctors used to do, and the doctor (that came from a well-to-do family) can sit like an all knowing sage in his/her office giving instructions to the physician assistants. Naturally, some of the duties of the physician assistants might include dutes such as getting the doctor's coffee, lunch, etc., but that makes sense, since the doctor did come from a well-to-do family, which correlates to one's "social class," and the physician assistants came from a more middle-class background, at best, and that correlates with a lesser "social class." So, society maintains it homeostasis, that being the real important focus of the dilemma, in my opinion.

The concern you voiced in your post , regarding the inequity of everyone that might be qualified to be a doctor, may not be able to afford the education, reflects, in my opinion, the false-premise that everyone should have the same opportunity in society. That goes counter to the reality to all the westerns I saw as a child on (black and white) tv, where there were families owning great swaths of land (aka, Bonanza), and today their descendants can afford to go to medical school, etc. In other words, the early bird (to the U.S.) catches the proverbial worm. That is how the U.S. evolved. To change it now, just treats those well-heeled families and their ancestors that died from cholera, typhus, smallpox, with a flippancy, in my opinion. Oh yes, their ancestors also died in wars that my ancestors did not even know were occurring. So, they rightly earned their dominant position in society, in my opinion. Otherwise, I would just be an upstart wanting to gain an advantage that I would not have earned, in my opinion.
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Aug, 2013 09:48 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Does the military pay for one's education, if one has the needed academic grades, and then commits to an enlistment upon becoming an MD?


The military and the Public Health Service ( federal) offer scholarships to inidviduals who make a commitment to serve in the military for a set period of time.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Aug, 2013 09:52 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
But, if you want to focus on the poorer intelligent child ... why must society treat the child's wishes with such concern?


We're not talking about children, we're talking about young adults ( 21-22), who are intelligent and want to attend medical school, but who don't have the money to do so.
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Aug, 2013 10:17 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
The concern you voiced in your post , regarding the inequity of everyone ..., reflects, in my opinion, the false-premise that everyone should have the same opportunity in society


And if qualified... everyone should have the same opportunity. Most medical schools ( as far as I know ) set % goals of Asians, Whites, Hispanics, Afro-Americans so that the student population respresents the general population in the US.

In the case of Northwestern, the Whites were set at 40%, the Africans ( Afro- Americans) came in at about 10%, the Hispanics came in at about 18% and finally Asians came in at almost 30%.

While The % of Asians in the med school is higher than the % Asians in the US ( more like about ~15%) The level of Hispanics in the US population is rapidly approaching 40-50%( as far as I know ).

Thus there is surplus of Asians and a deficit of Hispanics in the medical school.

These % were first started when higher education began using affirmative action when selecting students for admission. Many medical schools still use a form of affirmative action. And incidentally, colleges across the Us have had to limit the number of Asians accepted, in order to give a more balanced student enrollement. This is also the case for med school.

I recall a time in Chicago, when quotas were in place for the University of Illinois when considering Jewish students for the medical school. If quotas had not been in place, it was speculated that all of the medical students would have been Jewish.

I am a firm believer in diversity in the medical profession. Don't you believe that an Hispanic patient would feel more comfortable and more conversent having an Hispanic doctor?

I feel that the same applies to a certain extent to Afro-Americans. While color of skin may be important in the relationship between a physician and a patient, more important, is a form of common social ground ( or understanding) between a patient and a Physician. I remember, a black MD telling the TV reporter, that some black women didn't want to undergo colonoscopy evaluations, because of weight issues.

Would a black woman tell a white male MD this same story? I doubt it.

As far as the issue of income levels and class, do many upper middle class doctors really understand what it feels like to be poor...really poor?

Finally, I do support the enrollment ofintelligent and qualified kids from lower middle class, or lower levels of society in the pursuit of a medical education ( become MDs).

Diversity strengthens American society and makes us a richer and more productive and sensitive group of individuals.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 10:33 am
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Quote:
But, if you want to focus on the poorer intelligent child ... why must society treat the child's wishes with such concern?


We're not talking about children, we're talking about young adults ( 21-22), who are intelligent and want to attend medical school, but who don't have the money to do so.



So, why must society bend over backwards to get these kids though medical school, when they can make a career of the military, as a doctor, and the medical school was paid for by the government?

In other words, why should kids from one strata of society have the same opportunity as those from another strata of society? Just because they have brains? Many people are intelligent, and do all sorts of things to contribute to society. For example, in the Soviet Union many doctors where women. It didn't pay what U.S. doctors earned, and the govenment paid for the schooling. Fair trade, in my opinion. So, why should it be made easier for medical students in the U.S. to achieve doctorhood, if they are then going to fat cat financially as a doctor?

0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 10:46 am
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

And if qualified... everyone should have the same opportunity.


False premise, since one's social strata represents a criterion for qualification, in my opinion. The WASP world in society oftentimes subscribes to social class, in addition to intelligence and one's wealth as who one is in society. This can reflect one's paternal family oftentimes, not one's personal situation. Ethnics might not subscribe to the social class system, as upper-class WASP's tend to. However, to maintain this country, as it is, I do not want a socialized view of society, so people from ordinary circumstances get to change society. The status quo is quite good for me, and extended family, in my opinion.

Feed the poor, succor the sick, house the homeless, but don't start making silk purses out of some other material (metaphorically speaking, of course), in my opinion.

P.S. What would be so wrong if all the medical students where Jewish, anyway? What if the dirty little secret is that Jewish students are really just competing against the Asian students? Now it makes sense why Ashkenazi Jews were once called Oriental Jews.
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Aug, 2013 04:39 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
What would be so wrong if all the medical students where Jewish, anyway?


At the time of the question of limiting the # of Jewish students in the medical school at the U of Illinois in Chicago, the only State supported med school in Illinois was the U of I in Chicago. Most of the students admitted came from Cook County and at the time, prior to the Jewish-based quota rule, most of the students from Cook County ( a good part being those from Chicago ) were Jewish.

The issue appears to have been two fold. First of all, why should so many students admitted to the Med school come from Chicago ( Cook County ) and why was there limited diversity relative to student population, when the City of Chicago and the rest of the State of Illinois has a very diverse citizen population.

Today, the City of Chicago has been reported to be about 40% Hispanic and about 40% Afro-American, the rest either Asian, white or unknown.

Since that time of the Jewish quota in the med school, the State of Illinois has built several other State-supported medical schools, thus reducing the pressure on the school based in Chicago and of course, there is no (as far as we know ) Jewish quota.


Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Aug, 2013 09:04 am
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Most of the students admitted came from Cook County and at the time, prior to the Jewish-based quota rule, most of the students from Cook County ( a good part being those from Chicago ) were Jewish.



And, Spain under the Moors, had quite a few Jewish doctors treating high officials. A problem?

I do not understand why Jews, if they can afford the medical school, and get high enough marks to be the top qualifying students, should not have a greater percentage in medical schools?

Until more medical schools are built for the diverse Gentile masses, should Jews purposely fail tests, so they won't qualify? Let's not upset the Gentile ego with smart Jews?

If you are familiar with sociology, the grandparents/great-grandparents of many an Eastern European Jewish professional came here practically a pauper, started a business, the children built up the business, and the grandchildren opted for a professional life as a doctor, lawyer, dentist, etc. It is called upward-mobility. Jews have had the opportunity in this country to be upwardly mobile, without the restrictions of much of historical Europe. So, what are your concerns about the Gentile diverse masses not becoming doctors? Jews are not becoming sanitation men. Let's get more Jews into Sanitation?

If I understand your concerns, not only will Jews, who are qualified, be excluded from being a doctor, but many an intelligent white Gentile might also lose out to someone who has just the right percentage of melanin cells to qualify for admittance to a medical school. To me it sounds racist, since it is not based on qualifications.

By the way, the diverse masses you make mention of are in many cases comparitively new arrivals to the north, be they Black or Hispanic, when compared to whites. I do not see anyone complaining that WASP's, whose ancestors came here early gained an advantage towards upward-mobility. Jews, and other white ethnics have often been here since the latter half of the nineteenth century, and now the grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, should move aside for the diversity that came north in the 20th century, often in the latter half?

Please stop proselytizing your equal opportunity schtick, unless you can include a specific argument to explain the benefits for any equal opportunity. Just presupposing that equal opportunity is the correct way is dogma, in my opinion. Explain why, or accept the fact that this country only does things when there is an actual benefit, and not just based on slogans like equal opportunity, that in my opinion, is just a slogan to appease the have-not diverse masses.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Oct, 2013 11:11 am
Quote:
If I understand your concerns, not only will Jews, who are qualified, be excluded from being a doctor, but many an intelligent white Gentile might also lose out to someone who has just the right percentage of melanin cells to qualify for admittance to a medical school. To me it sounds racist, since it is not based on qualifications
.


Affirmative action was never meant to be based on qualifications. The purpose, at least one of them, is to promote diversification within the medical school classes.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 10:32 am
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Quote:
If I understand your concerns, not only will Jews, who are qualified, be excluded from being a doctor, but many an intelligent white Gentile might also lose out to someone who has just the right percentage of melanin cells to qualify for admittance to a medical school. To me it sounds racist, since it is not based on qualifications
.


Affirmative action was never meant to be based on qualifications. The purpose, at least one of them, is to promote diversification within the medical school classes.


That word "diversification" is not in my preferred lexicon. Let the best person win. Our country was built on that concept. Should we put short people of certain ethnicities on basketball teams?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:53 pm
Quote:
Let the best person win


And who would be the best person? I think that would be the person who will be able to offer the "best" medical care to the patient in need of such care.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 04:00 pm
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Quote:
Let the best person win


And who would be the best person? I think that would be the person who will be able to offer the "best" medical care to the patient in need of such care.


I also said "win." Your emphasizing "best person" only addresses half of my statement. One is not winning when one is handed something on a silver platter, because they address the concept of diversity. Argue with someone else, preferably in a socialist society, so you can both have a koom-bah-ya session, and then sell cookies.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Oct, 2013 01:46 pm
The "win" is the acceptance by a medical school by the applicant.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jan, 2014 01:25 pm
Quote:
Miller said: Is medicine still a profession for only wealthy, white males?..Obviously, the very wealthy can probably afford this costly education.

One possible way round it would be if mum, dad, aunts, uncles, grandparents and friends all chipped in to cover the fees?
PS- and there's always the risk that the student will fail to graduate at the end of it, so it'd be money down the drain.
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 05:46 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Yes, some students do fail to graduate after 2-4 years of medical school. Also, it's not uncommon to see medical school graduates fail their medical boards, without which they can't practice medicine in the US.

Even today, the field of medicine in the US is not a definite pathway to an everlasting and well paid salary. Some phases of medicine are slowly going down the drain.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 06:20 pm
@Miller,
I suppose if somebody really really wanted to be a doctor for the love of wanting to help people, their enthusiasm and devotion would probably carry them through to a successful graduation. But if somebody wanted to be a doc just to make money, it'd be a bit harder to graduate because their heart wouldn't truly be in it maybe.
For example I was expelled from school at age 14 for "not trying" and it meant my parents had wasted their money on an expensive school uniform, satchel and stuff (they weren't well off)
PS- in my defence let me say I hated the bloody school, I never wanted to be there and I wanted to be at another school with my mates , so no wonder my heart wasn't in it.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 07:34 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Does the military pay for one's education, if one has the needed academic grades, and then commits to an enlistment upon becoming an MD?



No. The military doesn't pay that much money to cover the four year premed bachelors degree. Then the several year's of medical school.

Quote:
2-year enlistment - $44,028
3 years - $63,756
4 years - $70,956
5 years - $78,156
6 years - $81,756 (the maximum)

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/armyjoin/a/armycollege.htm
So four years in the army would get you one year's worth of medical school if you already had a premed bachelors degree.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 03:48 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

I suppose if somebody really really wanted to be a doctor for the love of wanting to help people, their enthusiasm and devotion would probably carry them through to a successful graduation. But if somebody wanted to be a doc just to make money, it'd be a bit harder to graduate because their heart wouldn't truly be in it maybe.
For example I was expelled from school at age 14 for "not trying" and it meant my parents had wasted their money on an expensive school uniform, satchel and stuff (they weren't well off)
PS- in my defence let me say I hated the bloody school, I never wanted to be there and I wanted to be at another school with my mates , so no wonder my heart wasn't in it.


You're right about having to have "heart". If you don't have some heart and guts ( I may add) you'll have big time trouble enjoying any sort of job.

Best to be happy at what you're doing. I've always loved dancing, however, since no one will ever pay $$ to see me dance, I couldn't be a professional dancer. I still love dancing, I just can't earn a living working at it.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 03:52 pm
I thought Army and Navy and even the Air Force offered scholarships to those, with a BS and who wanted to attend medical school. The catch being...you had to commit to a 5 year enlistment in the armed forces, upon graduation.

It looks like a good deal, if you can physically take it.
0 Replies
 
 

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