15
   

Free speech/expression and CVS.

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:10 pm
@Lash,
Well, maybe.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:13 pm
@roger,
When the word "banned" saw ink in this discussion, I thought - hell, if a military, the government, some large powerful controlling entity forced a magazine undrground - then we're all out in the street - no matter how we feel about the content. But, yeah. A couple of chains refuse to shelve it? To me, that's an application of freedom of speech rather than an attack on it.

Thanks for your opinion. Wink
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:13 pm
@Thomas,
I don't buy that but am not equipped to argue.

Enter the law..
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:17 pm
@Lash,
ok, so we agree.


Wanna get some ice cream?


Not to sucker you in to really good paletas. I'll wait.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:22 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
Does CVS have an obligation to provide access to Every magazine that's published

No it doesn't. But it can't line-item veto every single issue of every single magazine that it does sell.

JPB wrote:
or just the ones they provided the month before?

I don't know where the line precisely is. I'm hoping that someone who knows the law will eventually shed some light on this. Obviously CVS has the right to permanently discontinue a magazine they sold last month because customers aren't interested in reading it anymore. But the issue here --- literally "the issue", singular --- is one specific issue of a magazine that they've been distributing forever, that they intend to keep distributing forever, and that too many people want to read because of the sensationalism CVS disapprovingly alleges. I would be surprised if that didn't fall under viewpoint discrimination. But again, I'm not a legal expert.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:32 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
I linked it here in the OP.

No you didn't. You linked the New Yorker article. I linked the Rolling Stone article.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:41 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Does CVS have an obligation to provide access to Every magazine that's published, or just the ones they provided the month before?


Nice question. Some years ago, a number of daily papers dropped a particular Doonsbury cartoon. Back in the '60s, Stars and Stripes discontinued publication of Beetle Bailey, because they didn't like their portrayal of modern army life. We (army members) thought it quite accurate. Humorous presentation, but basically accurate.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:51 pm
@Thomas,
When osso said she wanted to read the article, I did assume it was the one I'd excerpted. If I was mistaken about which one she wanted to read - my apologies.

I think this article shares my opinion better than I can.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/blogs/the_angle/2013/07/why_boston_reac.html
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 07:58 pm
@Lash,
I'll read that too.

I wanted to read the Rolling Stone article.

I'm not at my best this week, beg pardon - not to make excuses, but I'm just not here.

Which means, I should stop arguing.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 08:01 pm
@Thomas,

Quote:
No it doesn't. But it can't line-item veto every single issue of every single magazine that it does sell.


I think your statement is nothing more than hope. Yes, they can. Happens.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 08:08 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
Does it make a difference to you that it's for sale elsewhere?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway. To me it wouldn't make a difference. It's the same as when a barkeeper refuses to serve me because I'm an atheist. That's discrimination, and it's illegal. What difference does it make that I can get a beer in some other pub? None. It shouldn't make a difference in this case, either.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 08:14 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
CVS, Walgreens, and some other outlets are refusing to sell the Rolling Stone magazine that features Dzhokhar Tsarnaev on the cover.

Since I hate the cover, I'm happy with this decision.

I support the businesses and people who boycott the issue.

Some people take offense to this.

Among claims,1. if I support the boycott, my support of free speech is hypocritical. 2. CVS has a moral obligation to carry the issue.

I read an article in Alias's facebook page, and agreed with it until the last paragraph. The article seemed to jump from a defense for RS to an weird accusation against those who don't agree.

This final paragraph is off the mark. They seemed to have coined a new phrase that sounds "green" and "organic," and "sustainable," so it's cool and patriotic to spend some money on a Rolling Stone. Really, you must support Rolling Stone - and those people who won't - well, they're just unpatriotic and against Freedom of Speech.

Paragraph

Yet the vitriol and closed-mindedness of the Web response to the Rolling Stone cover, before anyone had the chance to read the article itself, is an example of two of the ugly public outcomes of terrorism: hostility toward free expression, and to the collection and examination of factual evidence; and a kind of culture-wide self-censorship encouraged by tragedy, in which certain responses are deemed correct and anything else is dismissed as tasteless or out of bounds. The victims of the Boston Marathon bombing deserve our attention, and will continue to teach us about perseverance and the best parts of our common nature. But the dark stories of the bombing need to be told, too. And we need to hear them.

Link: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/07/dzhokhar-tsarnaev-rolling-stone-cover-controversy.html

I don't expect many to have my opinion - but I would like honest opinions.
Can you be a proponent of freedom of speech and expression - and support a boycott?

Does CVS or any other retail outlet have a moral obligation to Rolling Stone in this instance?

Thanks.
I agree with your position, Lash.
I take a purely laissez faire vu.
Freedom of speech does not include a concomitant duty to listen.
Freedom of the press does not impose any duty on me to read the press.

I do not accept the vu of stores being places of "public accommodation"
tho I know that judicial opinion of the 1900s and since
does not support my love of freedom. I cling to the vu of the Founders.





David
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 08:26 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Freedom of speech does not include a concomitant duty to listen.
Freedom of the press does not impose any duty on me to read the press.

Nobody is arguing that it does.

OmSigDavid wrote:
I do not accept the vu of stores being places of "public accommodation"

Now that is a genuine point of disagreement.

OmSigDavid wrote:
tho I know that judicial opinion of the 1900s and since
does not support my love of freedom. I cling to the vu of the Founders.

And what view would that be? The view that it's okay to own slaves? The view that a slave counts as three-fifths of a human being? The view that Abigail Adams must have been kidding when she demanded that her husband John stand up for a woman's right to vote? The view that hanging men for consensual sex with other men is appropriate? The view that Native Americans held no rights to the land they'd been living on for centuries and millennia?

As you might notice, I generally am happy that the views of America's founders have been shitcanned in some parts and reformed in others.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 09:00 pm
@Thomas,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Freedom of speech does not include a concomitant duty to listen.
Freedom of the press does not impose any duty on me to read the press.
Thomas wrote:
Nobody is arguing that it does.
Nevertheless, I deemed it helpful to point it out
in support of Lash 's vu.





OmSigDavid wrote:
I do not accept the vu of stores being places of "public accommodation"
Thomas wrote:
Now that is a genuine point of disagreement.
Yes.






OmSigDavid wrote:
tho I know that judicial opinion of the 1900s and since
does not support my love of freedom. I cling to the vu of the Founders.
Thomas wrote:
And what view would that be?
It wud be and it is
a vu that is very, very stingy in granting domestic jurisdiction to government,
in recognition of the fact that personal freedom and said jurisdiction are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.

I wish to see the Individual citizen be progressively aggrandized in his liberty
by progressively reducing & constricting the authority of government, annually.







Thomas wrote:
The view that it's okay to own slaves?
The view that a slave counts as three-fifths of a human being?
No; I don't challenge the 13th Amendment.




Thomas wrote:
The view that Abigail Adams must have been kidding when she demanded
that her husband John stand up for a woman's right to vote?
No. I have always supported the 19th Amendment.




Thomas wrote:
The view that hanging men for consensual sex with other men is appropriate?
That is not in the Constitution.
I am not aware that any of the Founders deemed that to be
a necessary part of Americanism. Do u have evidence to the contrary ?






Thomas wrote:
The view that Native Americans held no rights to the land they'd been living on for centuries and millennia?
I am under the general impression that thay were nomads,
asserting no claims to real estate (most of them, anyway).
I claim no expertise on this point.
Have u evidence to the contrary?





David
Lustig Andrei
 
  4  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 11:00 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
You're really adept at wriggling out of the tight squeezes, aren't you, Dave? Saying that you do not oppose the 13th or the 19th Amendment to the Constitution is just muddying the waters. It wasn't the so-called "Founding Fathers" who wrote and approved those Amendments. The very fact that such amendments were deemed to be necessary shows that by the mid-19th Century many of the early notions of the founding fathers had come to be viewed as inapplicable in a democratic society. I wonder, by the end of the 21st century, how many more will have come under closer scrutiny.

And you are disingenuous as hell when you say that what you were talking about was the founding fathers' perceived distrust of a strong government. [Emphasis mine.] Nowhere in your OP do you make this distinction clear. Reading your screed, it is quite natural that Thomas and everyone else would assume that you mean that you heartily approve of everything that the founding fathers put into that document we call the Constitution. {Again, emphasis mine.] So, if you truly believe in the sanctity and inviolate immutability of the Constution as written, why then you perforce must be in favor of slavery and opposed to the notion of election of U.S. Senaors by popular vote.

Your attempt to weasel out of those views is logically pathetic, at best.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Jul, 2013 11:25 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
You're really adept at wriggling out of the tight squeezes, aren't you, Dave?
Saying that you do not oppose the 13th or the 19th Amendment
to the Constitution is just muddying the waters. It wasn't the so-
called "Founding Fathers" who wrote and approved those Amendments.
Those amendments had more recent founders.






Lustig Andrei wrote:
The very fact that such amendments were deemed to be necessary shows that by the mid-19th Century many of the early notions of the founding fathers had come to be viewed as inapplicable in a democratic society. I wonder, by the end of the 21st century, how many more will have come under closer scrutiny.
U do, huh ?
Thank u for that information.






Lustig Andrei wrote:
And you are disingenuous as hell when you say that what you were talking about was the founding fathers' perceived distrust of a strong government. [Emphasis mine.] Nowhere in your OP do you make this distinction clear.
Was I supposed to ?







Lustig Andrei wrote:
Reading your screed, it is quite natural that Thomas and everyone else would assume that you mean that you heartily approve of everything that the founding fathers put into that document we call the Constitution.
If I had a vote in the Constitutional Convention,
I might have had an idea or 2 to contribute.







Lustig Andrei wrote:
{Again, emphasis mine.] So, if you truly believe in the sanctity and inviolate immutability of the Constution as written,
why then you perforce must be in favor of slavery and opposed to the notion of election of U.S. Senaors by popular vote.
My support of the Constitution includes its 5th Article qua amendment.






Lustig Andrei wrote:
Your attempt to weasel out of those views is logically pathetic, at best.
Thank u for your pathos,
but I thawt u said that I was "really adept".





David
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 06:38 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
I don't buy that but am not equipped to argue.

As it turns out you, were right not to. I talked to someone I trust on legal matters. He informed me that all civil-rights obligations of public accommodations are to their customers only, not to their suppliers. Obviously, Rolling Stone is nothing but a supplier to CVS. So while I continue to believe it ethically wrong that a drug store should play censor, it is clearly legal. My speculation that it isn't was mistaken.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 06:52 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
ou're really adept at wriggling out of the tight squeezes, aren't you, Dave? Saying that you do not oppose the 13th or the 19th Amendment to the Constitution is just muddying the waters. It wasn't the so-called "Founding Fathers" who wrote and approved those Amendments


Sorry but the constitution were passed by the states under the promise that a bill of rights would be but forward at once.

A large numbers of the important founding fathers such as Adam and Hamilton and Jefferson was indeed involved in the matter of the ten amendments.

Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 08:30 am
@Thomas,
You're creating false analogies. If you discriminate against someone because of their race or gender, you are discriminating against them for something they cannot control, and which cannot be shown to be pernicious in and of itself. Someone's viewpoint is something they choose, not something the are born with, and private persons (which, in our weird world of law, includes corporations) are entitled to deem a viewpoint pernicious.

Rather than just take your word for, i'd like it if you would cite case law for "viewpoint discrimination." I take your point, and agree with it, that the case could be considerably different for governmental agencies.

Finally, definitions of pronography have been been determined to be based on community standards--so what constitutes pron could well be considered a viewpoint.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Jul, 2013 08:44 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Finally, definitions of pronography have been been determined to be based on community standards--so what constitutes pron could well be considered a viewpoint.


Sorry I am not aware of any court ruling that would allowed a picture that have nothing to do with sex to be classify as porn.
 

 
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