Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 11:53 am
Are you an honest-to-gosh mathematician

My q is this: Given forever in an infinite Universe of more-or-less uniform composition, is it true that anything can happen, will happen. If so, at this very moment, for instance, doesn't that mean that there must be an infinite number of galaxies like this one in which everything happening here at this instant is also happening

…..and another infinite number differing from this one only in a single hair on Joe Frigby's head 0.000000000001 mm, or one quantum unit longer

My reaction, for what it's worth (not much here at a2k) is no, there wouldn't. It's purely intuition but might be based on the advanced math of infinity where some infinities are bigger than others

On the other hand it might mean simply that the Universe isn't infinite. The only trouble with this assumption (as one astute a2k'er had pointed out in an earlier thread on the subject) is that everything that would happen above, would still eventually happen, though not simultaneously

....leaving us with the Christian's Megillah, in which it comes into being through an act of creation, happening only once. However that idea is so full of contradiction and paradox as to hardly be worth entertaining

…unless you have a new idea...
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Type: Question • Score: 2 • Views: 2,443 • Replies: 65
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dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jun, 2013 06:31 pm
@dalehileman,
Honest to gosh fellas, really I'm not kidding around, these feelings about infinity have always bothered me and seem critical to the notions of the Big Bang, religion, the Great Petering Out, even reason itself

Of critical issue incidentally is a contrdictory notion propmpting the inevitable q, "If the Universe is finite, then what's outside"

Of course tho hard to visulaize, easy to answer: There's simply isn't an outside
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jun, 2013 12:13 am
I believe that according to physicists, the universe is not infinite, and contains a large, but finite number of stars, formed from the finite amount of matter produced in the Big Bang.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sat 22 Jun, 2013 08:49 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

I believe that according to physicists, the universe is not infinite, and contains a large, but finite number of stars, formed from the finite amount of matter produced in the Big Bang.


Science does not have all the answers. Humans don't have all the answers.

Compared with what could eventually be known...we may be on a level with ants.

We do not know if what we call the "universe" is everything...or just an infinitesimally small part of something much greater. We do not know if it is actually part of infinity.

We certainly do not have access enough to "everything" to make statements like "there are a large, but finite number of stars."

MY GUESS: Nobody now living on planet Earth knows if the number of stars are finite or infinite.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jun, 2013 10:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
MY GUESS: Nobody now living on planet Earth knows if the number of stars are finite or infinite.
Of course nobody knows but I incline to believe 9000 above. It just seems reasonable, assuming the Big Bang, certainly finite

My q's however presuming infinity are intended only as a math exercise: Again, wouldn't there have to be an infinite number of identical galaxies, however remote from one another
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sun 23 Jun, 2013 03:02 am
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
MY GUESS: Nobody now living on planet Earth knows if the number of stars are finite or infinite.
Of course nobody knows but I incline to believe 9000 above. It just seems reasonable, assuming the Big Bang, certainly finite

My q's however presuming infinity are intended only as a math exercise: Again, wouldn't there have to be an infinite number of identical galaxies, however remote from one another


Not sure why there would "have to be"...but it does sound reasonable.

And what makes you sure that what we call "the universe" is actually the universe?

There may be an infinite number of what we call "universe"s out there...with an infinite number of stars.

dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jun, 2013 12:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Not sure why there would "have to be"...but it does sound reasonable.
Realities aside, it's purely math

Quote:
And what makes you sure that what we call "the universe" is actually the universe?
What else might it be

Quote:
There may be an infinite number of what we call "universe"s out there...with an infinite number of stars.
Raising all sorts of interesting q's. Aside from the notion of identical galaxies, if all those "universes" occupy the same infinite void they'd have to interact whereupon it's interesting to speculate whether such interaction might somehow prevent such identicality
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Sun 23 Jun, 2013 05:28 pm
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5364621)
Quote:
Not sure why there would "have to be"...but it does sound reasonable.
Realities aside, it's purely math


Show me the math! I cannot conceive of you having done the math to substantiate this.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And what makes you sure that what we call "the universe" is actually the universe?
What else might it be


Up until just a hundred or so years ago...we thought our galaxy was all that existed...and that our galaxy was the universe.

Just as we found that our galaxy was merely a tiny part of the "universe"...we may find that the family of billions of galaxies that we know of...are just a tiny, tiny part of something greater.

What we now call "the universe" may be almost nothing.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 10:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
Realities aside, it's purely math

Quote:
Show me the math! I cannot conceive of you having done the math to substantiate this.
No no Frank, sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was, I'm not advocating a specific position, only welcoming the math that might in an infinite Universe disprove the notion of identical galaxies etc
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 10:25 am
@dalehileman,
Quote:
doesn't that mean that there must be an infinite number of galaxies like this one in which everything happening here at this instant is also happening


No. This isn't even mathematically correct.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 11:28 am
@maxdancona,
...in which everything happening here at this instant is also happening
Quote:
No. This isn't even mathematically correct.
Okay Max I'll have to take your word for that though if not too abstruse I'd like to hear why

Keeping the following assumptions in mind: Infinite Universe of more-or-less uniform composition where the rules are the same throughout
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 11:37 am
@dalehileman,
Think of it this way Dale.

Infinite numbers does not mean every possible number. I can give you an infinite number of integers that does not include the number 2. For that matter, I can give you an infinite number of integers that has no even numbers.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 11:38 am
@dalehileman,
I would also add that we have pretty good scientific evidence that the physical universe is not infinite.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 11:52 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Infinite numbers does not mean every possible number. ……. I can give you an infinite number of integers that has no even numbers.
Yea Max I fully comprehend but don't see how it applies. If the Universe is infinite and anything that can happen, will happen, then no matter how small its chance, wouldn't there still be an infinite number of every possible Universe


Quote:
I would also add that we have pretty good scientific evidence that the physical universe is not infinite.
So I understand. Furthermore I have this absolutely nutty theory that the intuitionally absurdity of the conundrum represented above somehow constitutes strong evidence if not absolute proof of its finiteness
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 11:53 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I would also add that we have pretty good scientific evidence that the physical universe is not infinite.



I suspect that what you mean is "...we have pretty good scientific evidence that what we call the physical universe is not infinite."
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 12:25 pm

What's your point Frank? You are technically correct that words have no meaning outside their meaning, but I mean how far would you take this?

Why wouldn't it be...
Quote:

What we call "we" have pretty good what we call scientific evidence that what we call calling the what we call physical universe is not what we call infinite.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 12:52 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

I would also add that we have pretty good scientific evidence that the physical universe is not infinite.



I suspect that what you mean is "...we have pretty good scientific evidence that what we call the physical universe is not infinite."


BECAUSE scientists do not havse good scientific evidence that infinity is not the REALITY. What we call "the universe" (the few billion galaxies we see or can guess about) may not even be a tiny speck in the real universe.

Those words (what we call) are important.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 12:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Those words (what we call) are important.


I disagree. What we call Words have what we call definitions that allow what we call us to what we call communicate. If we don't what we call agree on the what we call meaning, then adding a phrase like "what we call" adds nothing.

The phrase "what we call" can be used anywhere. It is meaningless. If this conversation has any meaning, you are going to have to provide an acceptable definition for the word "reality".

Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 12:55 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Those words (what we call) are important.


I disagree. What we call Words have what we call definitions that allow what we call us to what we call communicate. If we don't what we call agree on the what we call meaning, then adding a phrase like "what we call" adds nothing.

The phrase "what we call" can be used anywhere. It is meaningless.



Okay. You disagree. Thanks for telling me.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jun, 2013 12:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Let me ask.

What are you calling "reality" (if it isn't the things we observe and interact with)? This concept seems to be pretty important to you. My definition of reality has to do with what is scientifically, or qualitatively measurable or observable (either now or in the future).

I am curious if you have a better one.
 

 
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