10
   

Woo hoo! Atheists get to go to heaven!

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 08:35 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

DAVID wrote:
Atheists who have survived human death
(i.e., re-incarnated in hospitals -- usually after defibrillation)
have reported some problems related to atheism
.

Nonsense an I remember personally when I was given ether gas in the 1950s
seeing a pretty pin wheel tunnel as the gas effected my mind.
Its possible that similar effects
can be generated by a variety of different causes.
Please note that I am not motivated
to convince u of anything
; just chatting with u.





BillRM wrote:
I question however if the affect had anything to do with going toward the afterlife
It might not have been related to that;
perhaps u were in sufficiently good human health
as not to be leaving your human body.






BillRM wrote:
and when human brains are subject to lack of O2
Did thay DO that to u?? Did u sue for malpractice,
qua inadequate oxygenation of your brain. ( I might make a joke
that such was the reason for the syntax of how u post,
but I don't wanna be impolite, or get u mad at me.)






BillRM wrote:
and other stresses tunnels and so on is not unlikely to occur.

It is like saying that people who took LSD and then saw the afterlife
on his or her trip is any indication that there is an afterlife.
Folks who remember entering thereinto
have described it feeling "super-real", like awakening
from a dream, until thay get back into their human bodies.

Its fun, feels good to get outside of your human body.

Maybe it can be POSSIBLE that u have an emotional investment
in believing in death, I dunno; if so, I don't wanna take that away
from u; just chatting.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 09:22 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Maybe it can be POSSIBLE that u have an emotional investment
in believing in death, I dunno; if so, I don't wanna take that away
from u; just chatting.


There is no question about death happening to all of us but I am assuming you are addressing the idea of an afterlife.

Humans as in all humans as far as I know like the fantasy of meeting love ones that had died before us and going on in some manner after our deaths.

For myself the group of love ones who would be greeting me would contain a large numbers of dogs and cats beside my human love ones.

The likelihood of there being an afterlife however approach zero in my opinion no matter how nice the fantasy happen to be.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 09:23 pm
@edgarblythe,
I liked John XXIII, but that was a long time ago.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 09:23 pm
@edgarblythe,
I liked John XXIII, Angelo Roncalli, but that was a long time ago.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 May, 2013 09:48 pm
@ossobuco,
Being disinterested for the most, I can't recall the individual Pope names. After one is gone, I pretty much forget him.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 12:59 am
@BillRM,
DAVID wrote:
Maybe it can be POSSIBLE that u have an emotional investment
in believing in death, I dunno; if so, I don't wanna take that away
from u; just chatting.


BillRM wrote:
There is no question about death happening to all of us
but I am assuming you are addressing the idea of an afterlife.
Death does not occur to any of us; it never has.
Its only MOLTING; its not just the teeth n hair
that r deciduous: the whole thing is: the shell,
like a lobster who goes on his way, after his molting.
He did not perish.



BillRM wrote:
Humans as in all humans as far as I know like the fantasy of meeting love ones
that had died before us and going on in some manner after our deaths.
Abandoning your human body
is not loss of conscious life.
Some of us have had it happen while the shell
remains in good health. If it happens to u,
I suspect that u will like it.





David


BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 04:42 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Death does not occur to any of us; it never has.


As death is normally define no matter what your religion believes happen to be as a rotting body after life had let it there is surely death for all of us.

Now if your believes causes you to think that there is some stage or stages of so call life after death as in the afterlife that is fine with me but changing the meaning of what is met by death to a non-standard one is not fine with me.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 05:09 am
@BillRM,
DAVID wrote:
Death does not occur to any of us; it never has.
BillRM wrote:
As death is normally define no matter what your religion believes [????]
Y are we discussing what religions believe?????
I don't understand Y u bring that up.
I 'm talking about what actually HAPPENS,
i.e., the end of conscious life: it does not happen.




BillRM wrote:
happen to be as a rotting body after life
had let it there is surely death for all of us.
The rotting body does not change
the existence of your conscious life
(regardless of what any religion believes).
When your car is rusting in a junkyard, u still r consciously alive.
The progressive rust on the car makes no difference to u.

When u throw away old shoes,
u still keep walking n u forget about them.

Thing that thay throw in a hole n cover with dirt
is NOT u, Bill.




BillRM wrote:
Now if your believes causes you to think that there is some stage
or stages of so call life after death as in the afterlife that is fine
with me but changing the meaning of what is met by death
to a non-standard one is not fine with me.
Death is the end of conscious life; it is a hoax. Don't fall for it.

U don't need your human body,
in order for u to be consciously alive, Bill,
just as when your teeth fell out at age 6,
u were not less alive.

A lot of people who have returned from death in hospitals
(i.e., no EKG, no EEG, no respiration for a while)
have been annoyed at returning to human life;
came back angry, complaining that thay were OK.
Some compared re-incarnation to being put back in jail.





David
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 02:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
A lot of people who have returned from death in hospitals
(i.e., no EKG, no EEG, no respiration for a while)
have been annoyed at returning to human life;
came back angry, complaining that thay were OK.
Some compared re-incarnation to being put back in jail.


A mensan you say.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 04:08 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
A lot of people who have returned from death in hospitals
(i.e., no EKG,


No EKG waves and they came back that I would ask you to give a link to.

The brain shut down completely that is the end unless you would like to share some proof otherwise!!!!!

Hell if the brain shut down so does breathing and one hell of a lot of other functions.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 04:35 pm
@edgarblythe,
Even now, I'm not uninterested. I don't have a brain like some, who analyze and remember, but I have sensations of takes on some popes of the past, but can't always get the names right, much less the details. I like some popes for some things and don't hate some as much as others do (based on some damned thing I read somewhere). One that remains interesting to me is the Piccolomini pope, who planned a town, Pienza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pienza
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 04:41 pm
@BillRM,
Well you learn news things everyday at least until you die it would seems.

Quote:


http://www.drrmotz.com/newsletters/2012/April-2-2012.html

First, some fundamental facts. The cortex of the brain, which is what we see in our minds when we think of a brain, generates electrical and magnetic impulses while you are alive and thinking, dreaming, processing sensory input from the world, etc. These electrical signals can be detected by an ElectroEncephaloGram, or EEG, and the flow of blood and metabolic activity can be measured by a functional MRI, or fMRI as well as a PET scan.The brain stem controls breathing as well as reflexes that involve the cranial nerves, such as the corneal or blink reflex, the gag reflex, and a positive response to the apnea test -- more about these tests later. Finally, the heart has its own pacemaker(s) and can beat by itself and circulate blood even when the brain stem has been totally destroyed.

I am not going to discuss the various definitions of death that operated in different societies, or before WWII, or in fact before 1968. Up until that time, it was generally felt that if your heart stopped beating (no pulse), AND you were not breathing (no signal to the diaphragm from the brainstem), you were considered to be dead. In certain cases of deep coma, some doctors insisted on a "flat line" EEG, i.e. no electrical evidence of cortical activity from the thinking part of your brain. Even then it was recognized that there were exceptions to that rule: certain drug overdoses such as glutethamide (Doriden) or cold water suffocation (drowning and a core body temperature below 95.0 degrees F) could mimic the state of death, and those patients, especially drowned children, could be revived with no apparent after effects.

Anesthesiologists often say that a deeply anesthetized patient is in a near-death state, in that they have to mechanically breathe for the patient. In the case of open heart surgery, the still, pulse less heart is shocked back into "life". If the anesthesiologist observes an acute increase in pulse rate or blood pressure during surgery, his/her immediate assumption is that the patient is feeling pain, and a narcotic is injected to suppress the putative pain, i.e. the anesthesia is deepened. Only if the elevated pulse and/or blood pressure does not respond to additional pain medication does he/she inject medicine to lower the pressure and the pulse. So the point here is if the pulse or blood pressure rise as an operation is being performed, the cortex of the brain may be perceiving pain.

In the August 5, 1968 of the Journal of the American Medical Association, the Harvard Committee, which contained psychiatrists, neurologists, and ethicists, but NO cardiologists issued their new guidelines for declaring death. They gave several reasons for the need for this new definition. Two of them were the need to free up ICU beds for patients who could better benefit from them, and to reduce the controversy over obtaining organs for transplantation. The conditions were (caps added by me): an unreceptive and unresponsive patient, no movements or breathing, no reflexes, and TWO FLAT EEG'S taken 24 hours apart. They reiterated the importance of this last test. Note that no mention was made of an absent pulse or a flat line EKG, but then again there were no cardiologists on the panel!

Then the federal government stepped in, passing the Uniform Determination of Death Act (UDDA) 1n 1981. This is now the law in all 50 states, The UDDA states that the ENTIRE brain must cease to function, irreversibly, and again it notes that drug overdose and hypothermia must be ruled out. However, unlike the Harvard statement, there is no requirement for flat-line EEG's, and certainly no requirement for a flat-line EKG. It is important to note here for the non-doctors in my reading audience that all the tests of reflexes, including caloric's, doll's eyes and ciliospinal are only tests of brain stem activity or the lack thereof. There is NO reliable test for the absence of higher cortical function if an EEG is not done. No reason was given for dropping the last requirement of the Harvard Committee.

Let me close by noting that there are two well-recognized near-death neurological states in which the patients can think and sense the outside world, but doctors are unable to determine that the patient has a functioning brain. In each state, there have been cases of patients recovering and becoming fully conversant with their doctors, and describing what they felt like. One is the Locked-In Syndrome, and the other is the Persistent Vegetative State. In the locked-in syndrome the brain stem is permanently damaged or destroyed, but the cortex is fully functioning. In the persistent vegetative state, there are brain waves, a sleep-wake cycle, and spontaneous breathing. The precise definitions are unimportant except to note that such patients can recover.

P.S. Karen Ann Quinlan lived for over 10 years after she was disconnected from her respirator.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 04:49 pm
I once read a paperback history of the Popes, but that was long ago. Their thoughts and activities are too foreign to my interests. I know had I been from a Catholic background I would have paid more attention. But my experience dealt with Baptists and the like. A whole nother creature.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 05:41 pm
On my fuzzyness - it was one of the early pius's, maybe a paul, or similar, in the early fifteen hundreds that instigated (my word) the first ghetto.

Yes, I could look it up. It was one of those popes.

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 May, 2013 06:15 pm
@BillRM,
DAVID wrote:
A lot of people who have returned from death in hospitals (i.e., no EKG,
BillRM wrote:
No EKG waves and they came back that I would ask you to give a link to.
OK, try Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander, M.D.
a neurosurgeon, senior in his profession, who returned from
having his brain shut down. His Link:
http://www.lifebeyonddeath.net/
There are many others.

Here is another link:
www.IANDS.org

U might be interested in the New Age sections of local bookstores.
Try Life After Life by Raymond Moody, M.D.

I bet that probably among your friends, some of them
have had out-of-body experiences, or returns from death in hospitals; yes ?




BillRM wrote:
The brain shut down completely that is the end
unless you would like to share some proof otherwise!!!!!
There was a time that the existence of subatomic particles
or of radio waves cud not yet be proven; did thay NOT exist ??
I 'm sure that u already know that the factual truth
of anything does not depend on whether it has been proven.





BillRM wrote:
Hell if the brain shut down so does breathing and one hell of a lot of other functions.
Yes, but your conscious life continues regardless of whether your human body
has been destroyed. When u have an out-of-body experience,
u recognize that your life does not depend on your material
flesh and bones.

I dunno, but I suspect that u have a case
of mistaken identity, to wit:
u believe that u are your material body.

That is like a snake believing that he is
the molted skin that he has abandoned.




David
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 06:07 am
@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/11/dr-eben-alexander-proves-need-heaven

All Eben Alexander proves is that there is a longing for heaven
A US doctor offers his near-death 'odyssey' as proof of an after-life. Yet for a scientist, his story's heavy on heavenly cliche


Peter Stanford
The Guardian, Wednesday 10 October 2012
Jump to comments (292)

Dr Eben Alexander claims in his book Proof of Heaven that, while in a coma in 2008, he 'floated over fluffy clouds', on his way to the final frontier. Photograph: Ron Edmonds/AP
Heaven has an edge over every other construct of the human imagination because, built into the design, alongside the fabulous promise that we can, after all, live forever, is a catch. We can never try it out and report back. There are no return tickets. And, before Richard Dawkins points it out, yes, of course, that means that even if every single one of us is ultimately disappointed when we catapult into oblivion, we have no way of warning those who come after us.

That, at least, is the theory. But when we are told that sneak previews are impossible, we instinctively try to find a way round the restriction. So on the cover of this week's Newsweek, neurosurgeon Dr Eben Alexander, who has taught at Harvard Medical School, boldly announces to the world that he has cheated death, visited Shakespeare's "undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns", and come back to tell us all in his imaginatively titled book, Proof of Heaven.

In 2008, Alexander was struck down by meningitis and spent seven days in a coma. Science says that, during this ordeal, everything should have gone blank since his neocortex wasn't functioning. But this celestial Columbus claims that, while apparently flat out, he was actually on "a hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey" to the final frontier. He floated over fluffy clouds, met "transparent … shimmering beings" and was guided through this timeless world by a beguiling female. It was all, he writes reassuringly, "an immense void, completely dark, infinite in size, yet also infinitely comforting".

At least he didn't mention a bright white light, but in every other way his account contains just about heavenly cliche known to humankind. Proof of Heaven may have a certain cachet because its author is, by profession, "a man of science", and therefore, by the crude logic of our secular, sceptical 21st-century society, better placed than most to see through the ultimate claim of religion, but this book sounds like pretty run-of-the-mill near-death experience literature.And there's plenty of it around. The International Association for Near-Death Studies, founded in 1981, claims to speak for a constituency of 15 million in the US alone. In hugely popular books such as psychologist Raymond Moody's Life After Life, thousands of travellers report back on an extra-terrestrial world of painlessness, mysticism, peculiar light and beautiful but intangible guides to a divine pleasure dome.

What is most remarkable about these accounts is how similar they are to each other and to a whole literature that stretches back through the centuries. Once, the very same topography was part of the beatific vision, fashioned by Christian theologians such as Saint Augustine as a heavenly landscape to frame the face of God.

The similarities prompt one of two responses. Either it must be true because so many people say it is. Or they are borrowing from each other one of the biggest collective delusions we have ever known. Or, perhaps, there is a third, more plausible explanation.

At its most simple, all of these pictures of after-life touch on the most basic of human needs, something that predates written language, philosophy and even religion itself. From the time the first Neanderthal sat next to the lump of dead protein that had been his or her mate and realised that something had to be done about the smell of rotting flesh, we have wanted there to be something more, something beyond death. When that body was put into a ditch, or pushed over a ledge into a ravine, the one left behind looked into the void and ached.

The myths, traditions and literature, the shamans and soothsayers, the priests and popes, the poets, writers and dramatists, have subsequently all tried to picture an after-life to take the sting out of that yearning. And, lest I be accused of having a closed mind (which I don't), of the uncertainty. Alexander, then, is just the latest in a long line.

There has, though, always been a tension in such fevered – or coma-induced – imaginings. For what most religions have taught is that heaven, paradise, nirvana, jannah, or whatever they have called it, is ineffable, beyond words, beyond imagination.

Each age, though, creates a heaven in line with its cultural reference points. Alexander's picture arguably owes a debt to a more recent enthusiasm, the images conjured up by the literature of space exploration. There is, though, a more timeless debt contained in his descriptions. It is Dante who is most readily called to mind by the beautiful, blue-eyed woman who guides the Harvard doctor round the land of fluffy clouds. In his Paradiso of 1321 (part three of his Divine Comedy that also includes Inferno and Purgatorio), Dante is shown around the many-layered celestial domain by Beatrice Portinari, a childhood friend of the poet who was his idea of female perfection.

But Dante – unlike Alexander – has the good sense, after much travelling, to realise the essential futility of his quest. Once he has left behind a paradise garden, the moon and the planets, even a mystical domain of shadowy figures, he approaches a place that is, he admits, beyond words, though he tries to summon up a few to describe how indescribable it is. Botticelli, perhaps, makes the point better. In his illustrations of Dante's Paradiso, he leaves the final page blank. And that image is surely far better attuned to what we really want of heaven than the current bold offer of proof positive.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 06:54 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I suppose I like the inclusiveness too, but...
... it still seems a little weird to include people in something they don't believe in.


Your originating post would suggest otherwise.

There is nothing "weird" about including atheists.

There are many things you believe to be so. Do they not apply to those who don't share your belief?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 06:58 pm
@Setanta,
Well, who has ever claimed they want to go to an after-life ruled by an adolescent ego-maniac?

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 07:00 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

maxdancona wrote:

I suppose I like the inclusiveness too, but...
... it still seems a little weird to include people in something they don't believe in.


Your originating post would suggest otherwise.

There is nothing "weird" about including atheists.

There are many things you believe to be so. Do they not apply to those who don't share your belief?
There was a religious minister who was brought back from death
after a heart attack.

He said: " I was surprised that God was not interested in my theology."
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 May, 2013 07:10 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Well, who has ever claimed they want to go to an after-life ruled by an adolescent ego-maniac?


An far more important populated with people who would worship such an ego-maniac
 

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