cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 08:37 pm
@BillRM,
You did not explain anything except to tell me to reread his post. That's not an explanation by any means. You must show me how my opinions does not relate to what he wrote.

Simple in concept, but very difficult for you.

He said x, and I said y. Show how they don't relate?
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  3  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 09:05 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Sorry he was not talking about mathematical modeling of the economic but how bitcoins are produce using mathematics functions.

Not one and the same thing.


Exactly right, Bill.

A distinction that is simple in concept, but apparently difficult for someone in this thread to grasp.
cicerone imposter
 
  -1  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 09:28 pm
@Kolyo,
Sorry, but bitcoins are economic instruments. It has no intrinsic value, but are used as currency in a limited number of transactions.

When bitcoins are created using mathematical functions, how does that divorce it from the economy? DUH!

BillRM
 
  3  
Sun 14 Apr, 2013 11:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Sorry, but bitcoins are economic instruments. It has no intrinsic value, but are used as currency in a limited number of transactions.


One hundred percent true however that statement is true and apply not only to bitcoins but to all modern currencies including the US dollar.

You can not go to the US government and demand anything of so call intrinsic value for your dollars such as so many grams of silver or gold anymore then you can do so for bitcoins.

Quote:
When bitcoins are created using mathematical functions, how does that divorce it from the economy?


Also true however no claims otherwise had been posted by anyone on this thread that I had read.

The mathematic foundation/design of bitcoins however does means that no one can created more then the maximum of 22 millions coins and the transfer of coins can be done in a manner that does not allow the tracing back the ID of either party to the transaction.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 06:32 am
@cicerone imposter,
What makes you think that US dollars have "intrinsic value"?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 10:17 am
@maxdancona,
It has intrinsic value, because it has the greatest acceptance by the world economies. It's the major currency in the oil markets.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 10:27 am
@cicerone imposter,
For the last time, it doesn't matter how currency is created. Humans started using seashells as currency. In and of itself it didn't have intrinsic value, but the people who used them were a isolated minor group who didn't have paper or metal to make currency. For the longest time beer and wine were used as currency, and it had a broader usage, because almost everybody accepted it's value - even non-drinkers. No matter, they were/are all economic instruments, and impacted trade.

Here's the definition of money.
Quote:
Definition of Money
What is money? Money is any good that is widely used and accepted in transactions involving the transfer of goods and services from one person to another. Economists differentiate among three different types of money: commodity money, fiat money, and bank money. Commodity money is a good whose value serves as the value of money. Gold coins are an example of commodity money. In most countries, commodity money has been replaced with fiat money. Fiat money is a good, the value of which is less than the value it represents as money. Dollar bills are an example of fiat money because their value as slips of printed paper is less than their value as money. Bank money consists of the book credit that banks extend to their depositors. Transactions made using checks drawn on deposits held at banks involve the use of bank money.

BillRM
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:06 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It has intrinsic value, because it has the greatest acceptance by the world economies. It's the major currency in the oil markets.


Sorry while the US dollar is the reserve currency of the rest of the world and have high standing due to the US economic power that does not mean that a US dollar have any intrinsic value of any kind.

Like bitcoins it value is set by the world market place opinion of it worth from moment to moment and once more it have zero value beyond that point.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:18 am
@BillRM,
We are talking about two different "intrinsic value."

From Wiki.
Quote:
Intrinsic value (ethics)
Intrinsic value is an ethical and philosophic property. It is the ethical or philosophic value that an object has "in itself" or "for its own sake", as an intrinsic property. An object with intrinsic value may be regarded as an end or (in Kantian terminology) end-in-itself.[1]


It's not the paper that people have faith in the US dollar. It's the ethical and philosophic property of it.

If that were not true, nobody would accept the US dollar to purchase goods and services.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
For the last time, it doesn't matter how currency is created. Humans started using seashells as currency. In and of itself it didn't have intrinsic value, but the people who used them were a isolated minor group who didn't have paper or metal to make currency. For the longest time beer and wine were used as currency, and it had a broader usage, because almost everybody accepted ito's value - even non-drinkers. No matter, they were/are all economic instruments, and impacted trade.


Strange as once more you had posted a statement that for the most part no one is disagreeing with you and yet you are acting as if we are.

Now let address the small parts that there are some disagreement on.

Number one no modern currency have a so call intrinsic value and that include the US dollar and the EU currency and bitcoins for that matter.

Next it does matter that bitcoins unlike all other modern form of currencies can not be inflation by any governments actions and it is design to allowed transferring of wealth over the internet in a manner that is hard to next to impossible to trace along with the ownership of the coins.

The above characters not share by the current world currencies who are all creatures of governments make it very desirable to a subset of the world financial community.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:35 am
@BillRM,
I respond to all challenges if they are related to the topic at hand, and not ad hominems that results in nothing more than a waste of time.

You wrote,
Quote:
Next it does matter that bitcoins unlike all other modern form of currencies can not be inflation by any governments actions and it is design to allowed transferring of wealth over the internet in a manner that is hard to next to impossible to trace along with the ownership of the coins.


That's true to some degree, but all currencies are valued by the marketplace.

The value of bitcoins will be determined by those who use them. Although governments will not influence their value, there is nothing to back up bitcoins if it should go bust. The extreme fluctuation in its value from time to time does not bode well for a secure currency.
BillRM
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I respond to all challenges if they are related to the topic at hand, and not ad hominems that results in nothing more than a waste of time.


Once more ???????????????????????????????????
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:44 am
@BillRM,
I wrote over the weekend that I had no interest in gold as an investment.

Today's gold price now stands at 1366.2 US Dollar.

When more people try to sell their gold, their value will drop further. Where it ends is anybody's guess.
BillRM
 
  0  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 11:49 am
@cicerone imposter,
By the time you are hearing retail sale pitches for buying gold on the TV the market high for gold is about over.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 01:02 pm
Just some reading material here, and some things to consider:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 01:19 pm
Another interesting aspect/possibility of the Block Chain:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alternative_chain
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 02:26 pm
@rosborne979,
Interesting info, but I have one question. In most economic exchanges, taxes are an essential part of those transactions. How can bitcoins be "legal," if they skip the tax laws?
BillRM
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 03:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
In most economic exchanges, taxes are an essential part of those transactions. How can bitcoins be "legal," if they skip the tax laws?


How is bitcion skipping taxes?

You can always pay or not pay taxes no matter what means/currencies you used to buy or sell or trade goods in.

Of course the privacy that bitcoins offer make it easier to not pay taxes if you decide not to do so using botcoins but so do paying in cash for example over paying by checks and so on that leave a largest trail for the government to follow.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 03:22 pm
@BillRM,
You really don't know? Wow! No more need be said.
??????????????
BillRM
 
  1  
Mon 15 Apr, 2013 04:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
No I do not know why you could not charge and report sale taxes in bitcoins or trading profits in bitcoins or report the worth of paying your employees in bitcoins but feel free to explain how using bitcoins force you not to paid taxes.

I know there got to be a reason why bitcoins would force you to be a taxes cheater!!!
 

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