0
   

Public Policy of Permitting Bitcoin

 
 
gollum
 
Reply Sun 21 Apr, 2019 03:57 pm
I believe bitcoin was designed in order to enable its holders to hide their business from government. Specifically, to enable people to engage in illegal transactions (e.g., buying heroin) or evading taxes on their earnings.

So why do sovereign countries allow its citizens to own bitcoin?

Do any countries prohibit its citizens from owning bitcoin?
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Question • Score: 0 • Views: 286 • Replies: 18
No top replies

 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Apr, 2019 08:37 pm
@gollum,
Why wouldn't a free democratic country want its citizens to be able to hide their business from their government?
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 05:17 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona-

Thank you.

I think you are at least partly right. However, there may be some persons living in the country engaged in illegal behavior. A free democratic country might need to investigate and then take legal action against criminals.

In some cases the government may need to act before the crime occurs (e.g., terrorism).
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 09:25 am
@gollum,
I don't know what you mean by "act before a crime occurs".

In a free democratic society people have guaranteed civil rights. The government can not violate these rights to prevent or investigate crimes. The state can take legal action .... as long as it follows the restrictions imposed on it that guarantee the rights of it's inhabitants.

The fact that people are engaged in illegal behavior doesnt change anything.
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 01:10 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona-

Thank you.

Can a free democratic society:

1) See to it that on each of its citizens phone conversations the the two phone numbers be recorded and the numbers retained?

2) Record the license plate number of each car passing a certain point as well as the time and date?

3) Employ a plainclothes police officer to attend meetings at a particular mosque where there is reason to believe an act of terror is being planned?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 02:44 pm
@gollum,
Are we talking about the US specifically? We have a Constitution and 200 years of legal precedent to protect our rights.

1) The fourth amendment and legal precedent make it clear that this requires a warrant obtained based on a standard of probable cause. The rights of a citizen to privacy is well protected.

2) I believe it is legal for the police to do this.

3) It is deeply troubling for the government to spy on religious groups. I know there are protections in policy on this (the FBI has has strict policies to regulate its use of undercover agents in churches mosques or synagogues)

I also know there are cases where the US government spied on churches. This included during the time of slavery where agents joined religious groups to find runaway slaves. And, during the civil Rights movement of Dr. King.

Most of us feel these were gross violations of the rights of Americans.

Of course, if there is probable cause and a properly obtained warrant it is a different matter.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 02:48 pm
@gollum,
The internet and modern technology make it easier for individuals to avoid government spying. With an assymetric cipher I can exchange messages in a way that makes it very difficult for the government to know the contents or the recipient of the message.

In my opinion this is my right... and a good thing.
0 Replies
 
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 03:41 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona-

Thank you.

I believe that the NSA used to record the phone numbers of all conversations in the U.S. Then in the Summer of 2013, former NSA contractor Edward Snowden leaked classified information with details of the program.

One of the key documents leaked by Snowden was an order by the FISC requiring Verizon to hand over all those all of the above information on all phone calls in the U.S.

Snowden's revelations resulted in a heated congressional debate followed by the USA Freedom Act.

The law still gives the U.S. government access to the information. Except, the massive database of call records now remains with service providers and the government can seek court orders to access specific records.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 07:44 pm
@gollum,
That system is all but useless now. Service providers don't keep this data in a format that allows them to provide it in a timely manner.

If the government wishes to use the system now to untangle a circle of phone calls, it has to go through the lengthy process of "getting a warrant and waiting for the service provider to look up data" over and over again, jumping back and forth between providers every time someone in the circle of phone numbers uses a different service provider.

And even worse, service providers don't keep a long record of this data, so critical connections can be missed simply because data was too old and was purged.

One more example of leftists helping terrorists kill Americans.
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 07:47 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy-

Thank you.

I don't doubt you but what is the source of your information?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2019 07:58 pm
@oralloy,
Oralloy, I am a little surprised at this.

I would think that you would be in favor of the right to privacy. There are lots of good White gun owning Americans who value their right to privacy without the government snooping on them. I understand that you don't like terrorists... but White people who give up liberty for security deserve neither.

(... if only there was a way to take away the rights of just brown-skinned people)
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 01:27 am
@maxdancona,
I am very much in favor of the right to privacy. The phone metadata program never violated this right.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 01:28 am
@gollum,
gollum wrote:
I don't doubt you but what is the source of your information?

Here's an article about the length of time that the phone companies keep records:

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/05/22/how-long-cellphone-companies-store-your-call-records

Note:
A federal regulation requires landline providers to store call detail records 18 months
Verizon Wireless, the country's largest cell service provider, keeps call detail records for about one year
Sprint holds call logs 18 months


Those are all much less than the five years that the NSA kept data.

T-Mobile and AT&T wireless are pretty good about keeping data however.


Here is a document explaining the cumbersome process that the NSA now has to go through in order to track a number:

https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/about/civil-liberties/reports/UFA_Civil_Liberties_and_Privacy_Report.pdf

Note:
To illustrate the process, assume an NSA intelligence analyst identifies or learns that phone number
(202) 555-1234 is being used by a suspected international terrorist. This is the "specific selection term"
or "selector" that will be submitted to the FISC (or the Attorney General in an emergency) for approval
using the RAS standard. Also assume that, through NSA's examination of metadata produced by the
provider(s) or in NSA's possession as a result of the Agency's otherwise lawfully permitted signals
intelligence activities (e.g., activities conducted pursuant to Section 1.7(c)(1) of Executive Order 12333,
as amended), NSA determines that the suspected terrorist has used a 202 area code phone number to
call (301) 555-4321. The phone number with the 301 area code is a "first-hop" result. In turn, assume
that further analysis or production from the provider(s) reveals (301) 555-4321 was used to call (410)
555-5678. The number with the 410 area code is a "second-hop" result.

Once the one-hop results are retrieved from the NSA's internal holdings, the list of FISC-approved
specific selection terms, along with NSA's internal one-hop results, are submitted to the provider(s).
The provider(s) respond to the request based on the data within their holdings with CDRs that contain
FISC-approved specific selection terms or the one-hop selection term. One-hop returns from providers
are placed in NSA's holdings and become part of subsequent query requests, which are executed on a
periodic basis.


They used to be able to instantly check up on a number as soon as a court gave them permission to look at it. They didn't have to wait and carry out multiple periodic requests to the phone companies just to complete one search.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 01:30 am
@gollum,
gollum wrote:
I believe bitcoin was designed in order to enable its holders to hide their business from government. Specifically, to enable people to engage in illegal transactions (e.g., buying heroin) or evading taxes on their earnings.

I've never heard this. I've always heard that it was to make electronic transactions easier.

I'm not sure that it even enables such hiding. Aren't all bitcoin transactions permanently recorded in a public record that is freely accessible to the entire world?

A briefcase full of 1,000 Swiss franc bank notes or a pouch full of small-but-high-quality diamonds would seem a more effective way to avoid attracting government notice when conducting very large transactions.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 05:09 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I'm not sure that it even enables such hiding. Aren't all bitcoin transactions permanently recorded in a public record that is freely accessible to the entire world?


What is recorded is an anonymous key. You can mask your real identity with bitcoin.
0 Replies
 
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 05:11 am
@oralloy,
oralloy-

Thank you.
0 Replies
 
sumita12sofat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 06:27 am
@gollum,
The government of Jordan has issued a warning discouraging the use of bitcoin and other similar systems. The Central Bank of Jordan prohibits banks, currency exchanges, financial companies, and payment service companies from dealing in bitcoins or other digital currencies.
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Apr, 2019 03:21 pm
@sumita12sofat,
sumita12sofat-

Thank you, that is of interest. I wonder whether any other countries have taken any action.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2019 08:02 pm
@gollum,
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/bitcoin-is-close-to-becoming-worthless-2018-12-03. BTW, I would personally buy gold bars before investing in an invisible product. https://99bitcoins.com/price-chart-history/
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Bitcoin - Question by gollum
Bitcoin will ban - Discussion by jamil10
Bitcoin- What Is It? How do You Use It? - Question by Phoenix32890
Bitcoin - Question by gollum
pc storage because of btc - Question by martinopsal1
Physical Bitcoin - Question by gollum
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Public Policy of Permitting Bitcoin
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 09/19/2019 at 04:52:13