Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 04:33 am
@hingehead,
It makes sense, and your anti-religious sentiments are glaringly obvious. I've not read any of the "Left Behind" type of literature, and don't intend to, but that does not mean that i'm not familiar with Christian themes in literature. Apparently, you are not. When John Wesley stood on a hill in southern England and preached to a crowd of thousands, strong men, ignorant men (although not necessarily unintelligent men), who worked hard and lead hard lives, wept openly at the vision of redemption he painted for them. Their "betters" considered them peasants, but that didn't alter that they were aware of the essential injustices in their lives, and Wesley's vision gave them hope of a better place to which they might aspire, without reference to those "betters" who profited from their lives of unrelenting toil.

The evangelical dissenters (dissenters in that they did not participate the established church) made up a large part of the population of England in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, and for all that i know, still do today. Mary Ann Evans came from such a family, deeply loved her older brother, and suffered a life-long estrangement from him when she abandoned her family's religious values. She went on to become one of the great authors of English literature, and a "best-seller" in her own day--she wrote under the pen name George Eliot. Religious themes, especially that of personal redemption, figure prominently in her novels. The most famous is Silas Marner. The titular character is falsely accused of theft, loses his fiancee and is driven from his religious community. He moves from the urban slum where he has lived to a cottage in the countryside far away, where his work as a weaver is his only focus in life, and he hoards his money to repay the funds which he did not in fact steal. Those scant savings are stolen from him, and he sinks into despair. One winter's night a woman with her toddler is stumbling through the snow (she is an opium addict) and lays down. Her daughter wanders off toward the light she sees, which comes from Silas' cottage. He takes her in, then follows her tracks back to find her mother, now dead.

I'm not going to attempt to summarize the novel, but the child, whom he calls Hephzibah, his mother's name, completely changes his grim life. Whatever other melodrama is in the novel, the kinds of themes popular in Victorian England, the central story is how the presence of Eppie (as she calls herself) in his life fosters his personal redemption. He regains his self-respect, and enters into the life of his community. The Mill on the Floos is a turgid melodrama of the kind which sold well in Victorian England, despite its many shortcomings. It's interest is in its almost autobiographic character as it recounts the lives of a sister and brother who are both deeply involved in religion. Adam Bede is the story of one of those ignorant peasant men, hard working and living a hard life, who is an evangelical, and loves a thoughtless young woman who is seduced by a local, aristocratic rake. It is also a tale of personal redemption, and the struggle between love and sectarian dogma. Middlemarch, generally acclaimed by academics as her best novel, is entirely devoted to the theme of personal redemption, and its central character is a young woman who marries an evangelical scholar, and is quickly disillusioned. When he dies, she becomes very wealthy, and she struggles to both make a good life for herself, and to remain true to her evangelical values.

I doubt that contemporary Christian bookstore push the novels of George Eliot. Nevertheless, that one author alone gives the lie to the fling you made about "art mandated by decree."
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 04:38 am
@hingehead,
Its entirely market driven, just like "Chhristian Rock Music". I see no problem. HOwever I do see some unintended humor on the Christian "Fiction" category in our local country stores. Christian Fiction does include all the other books like "Creation as seen through Gods Miracle of Life". At leat the proprietors of the stores know where some of the stuff belongs.
We have a very active Evangelical Fundamental Chritian population in Lancaster County as well as a growing AMish community. These folks re all customers of that genre.

From what I see (I often accompany my wife when she goes on a trip to one of the big AMish General STores to buy cotton cloth). the Christian Fiction submissions go to paperback right from the getgo.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:01 am
I do not think I would buy any of those books of Christian fiction. It sounds as if they send a messaage.
Religion can occur in any book and I see no problem with it at all.
It can be fun like in "Father Brown",
.Or in a book like"The pillar of earth" certainly has to do with Christianity.
There are many more and they do not have to be sending a message at all. Some do.

What I do not like at all is the comment "there have been excellent books written by christians"
What is that supposed to mean? After all most European authors up till very recently would say they were/are Christians. Not meaning they have to go to church all the time or pray every day, but they would not see themselves as non Christians.
With this expression do you want to say that most authors with a Chtistian background could not write an exellent book?
How would people react if Christian would be exchanged with .....
Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist or a certain race?
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:08 am
@Setanta,
I have no idea why you are telling me this set
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:20 am
@hingehead,
That's a sad admission for you to make. You wrote:

Quote:
My main points of disturbance are:
A) art mandated by decree is almost always uninspiring (though sometimes smirkily amusing eg communist workers paradise posters)

B) who thought this was a good way to promote Christianity? Segmenting a market? Puh-leez.

Does it seem creepy to you, or does it make sense?


So who mandates art by decree? I said it makes sense because authors are exploiting a potential market, which is what authors do, and have done for centuries. Upon what basis to you allege aht "art mandated by decree" is almost always uninspiring (leaving aside that you have't shown that anyone decreed these books be written)?

What makes you allege that anyone is attempting to promote Christianity? I suspect that they're exploiting an existing, potential market--they're "preaching to the choir."

I'm telling you this because you ought to be embarrassed by the blatant bigotry of your thesis. I begin to suspect, though, that that's not going to sink in with you.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:25 am
@saab,
I dont think Follet had any of that in mind, what with all the vo-de-o-doing in his books.

Ive read some of the Christian Fiction. Its harmless and I dont think it poses any danger to your belief system, unless you have doubts in what your belief system is.

Most of the popular Christian Fictian are somewhat of a type called "Bodice Busters"(?). with somewhere along the plot some body mentions what God has done for em or like that.

dont worry, we're safe from the permitivvity of Scripture
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 05:47 am
@farmerman,
The Girl buys used books all the time (50 cents, a dollar) and there was a murder mystery i read which was OK--idle time killing sort of stuff. Then i saw another of those novels, only now, the main character has gone all religious on us. So i looked at another, and from the very beginning of the book, it became the central theme--this sleuth woman and her church buddies. So i don't read novels by that woman any longer, because they're bo-oring.

I also picked up a mystery novel in which the author, who isn't very damned good a this sort of thing, stops every ten pages of so to discuss the lives of deeply religious Jews, and the trials of Israel in a wicked world. I put that one down without finishing it. Anyone who rides a hobby horse can potentially ruin what they're writing.

I think Baldimo brought up a good point about people wanting to read books which do not have subjects which are offensive to them. This is all tempest in a teapot stuff, anyway. Ninety-five percent of all so-called art, in every generation--the music, writing, painting, etc.--is utter crap. There were thousands of composers working between 1756 and 1791 (the lifetime of Mozart). How many of them are still in the repertoire of orchestras?
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 07:00 am
@Setanta,
You are in a mood aren't you?

My point was the publishers commission the books - do you think there are wads of authors out there submitting novels with overt christian themes and all the publishers have to do is pick the good ones they submit? For a smart guy you seem naive about modern genre publishing.

And by it's very nature most novelists are christian, at least in the US - assuming that novelists share similar demographics to the rest of the country. So why the need to push this particular genre to libraries - market segment or not.

So you **** on my thesis that it may not be the highest quality by saying almost everything is ****. Quality argument.

I'm telling you this because you ought to be embarrassed by your natural stance of assuming the person you are writing to is holding passionately to a thesis and is obviously blatantly bigoted, though, that that's not going to sink in with you.

Even you quoted this from me:
Quote:
Does it seem creepy to you, or does it make sense?


Not a thesis, an opinion - and not one set in concrete, hence asking for other opinions.

Are you mixing me up with someone else who really annoys you? Or does it just piss you off if someone doesn't have fully formed opinions on a topic and asks around?
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 07:04 am
@hingehead,
You're the one shoveling bullshit here. I don't see you starting threads to complain about other genre literature, but i see you, in many contexts, badmouthing the Christians. Your claim about publishers commissioning books is a red herring. Publishers commission books from authors who already have a history as successful writers. They don't go out to beat the bushes looking for someone, no matter who it is, to write such books. That hardly qualifies for your ridiculous "art mandated by decree."

No, i'm not in a mood. I just don't like bigotry, overt or covert, and you are puking up a rather obvious bigotry here.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 07:21 am
@hingehead,
I figured you did, Hingehead.

I was just kidding...having a bit of fun.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 09:27 am
@saab,
"What I do not like at all is the comment "there have been excellent books written by christians"
What is that supposed to mean? After all most European authors up till very recently would say they were/are Christians."

That was dry humor, Saab. You missed understanding that.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 09:37 am
@hingehead,
I think some of the most beautiful art in history was created on commission and Christian in nature so I'm not venturing out on the limb of art by decree.

But I did, quite by accident, brush into Christian fiction and it was an interesting experience.

I was in the airport and just had a few minutes to pick up a book. The book rack had a book that boasted "NPR top 100 chiller thriller" or something like that. It turned out to be a thriller with heavy Christian overtones.

It was honestly the most poorly written book I've ever read.

hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 03:07 pm
@Setanta,
No Set you're the one shovelling **** here.

A ) I'm not complaining, I am stating that i thought it was creepy and ask the hive mind if they felt the same, some do some dont, one thinks I'm a bigot.

B)
Quote:
Publishers commission books from authors who already have a history as successful writers. They don't go out to beat the bushes looking for someone, no matter who it is, to write such books. That hardly qualifies for your ridiculous "art mandated by decree."

Yes yes I am guilty of hyperbole, Maybe I should have said strict editorial guidelines so as not to offend your sensibilities.

Publishers rely on book proposals (google it)

From the David c cook proposals page
http://www.davidccook.com/About/about/index.cfm?N=7,167,7,1
Quote:
About David C Cook
Manuscript Submission
Books
David C Cook is not accepting unsolicited proposals or manuscripts at this time. We will, however, consider proposals submitted through literary agents, as well as proposals submitted in response to select invitations extended at writers' conferences. Any unsolicited manuscripts and proposals sent directly to David C Cook will be returned to the sender without review.

Curriculum
David C Cook is not accepting unsolicited proposals or manuscripts at this time for curriculum products.


This is pretty standard practice and it tells the story. Cook clearly state what they publish, and they don't just accept any submissions. I still think that this is creepy, I'm sure their authors are fine with it.

This isn't a genre, it a genre of genres, if that makes sense. Pick any genre and make it have the same 'flavour/perspective/world view'. Now if train fanciers got a hold of a publishing house and started soliciting and publishing westerns, detective novels, and science fiction extolling the virtues of trains (not as the central theme, mostly just bubbling under the surface) then I would be just as dismissive ( maybe slightly less seeing how there are far fewer train lovers than Christians, that our society is not founded on train lover culture, and train lovers don't have a long rich literary history) this would not mean, that:

A) train lovers don't have every right to do this
B) that it doesn't make good business/marketing sense
C) that anyone creeped out by it is a bigot

Speaking of puking, I vomited a little in my mouth thinking about how quick you are to assume the worst so that you have a reason to castigate.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 03:23 pm
@boomerang,
It's hard to argue against that limb boomer. Artists didn't have many other ways doing their art, 'publishers' were monarchy, the church and the odd rich merchant.

Besides, the artist themselves were no doubt as enthralled with the subject matter as we're the commissioners. Something tells me that no one leaned over Michelangelo shoulder saying 'make the sky bluer' and 'make the demons less attractive'. Then again there was probably plenty of backseat painting.

I once helped go through entries in a short story competition, the only entry I remember was written really poorly, it read like a 11 year old's what I did on my summer holidays, was clueless about show don't tell and really stilted. But the juxtaposition with the content, made it, to use your term, interesting. Not good, just a walk down a street you'd never walked down before, and never would again.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 03:38 pm
In another forum where I post, they once had a contest to write a short story in 101 words or less. My entry could be considered a kind of Christian fiction.

So allow me to share it here:


LORD, PLEASE HELP!

It was late; the church was empty. She knelt at the railing of the altar rather than in a pew. Her face was turned upward looking at the huge crucifix; tears streaming down her cheeks.

“What do I do,” she said to herself, "do I stay even though I know he is cheating and will never stop—or do I move away and try for a new life. It is so hard, Lord, what do I do…please help me.”

The voice that answered was soft and non-intrusive—but was resolute with not a hint of doubt. “You’ve got to move.”

She flinched and made an audible gasp. The answer had actually come.

“You’ve got to move,” the soft, resolute voice said again, “we have a wedding scheduled for early tomorrow—and Father wants me to put flowers along the altar railing tonight.”
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 03:40 pm
@hingehead,
I wonder how J.S. Bach (and a slew of his contemporaries) would have made a living if it hadn't been for the Church subsidizing his compositions. It's true that most composers also had some secular patrons but their custom was often less than reliable whereas the church fathers would commission Masses and other musical material and pay relatively handsomely for them.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 03:47 pm
@hingehead,
To all, I get to have an opinion as I was exposed to a lot of miraculous stuff in my youth, starting with The Miracle of Fatima, of which a friend of my father's was a star, Father Peyton.

As said on many posts before, I'm not anti-religion, or wasn't once I figured myself out after revolting against my own for some years, as men (oh, and women) will organize communities of belief, and some of it works to help people.
I'm also way chary of helping people to gain a way to heaven, but that's another subject.

But if stuff creeps me out, that is my right to post.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 03:55 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
do you think there are wads of authors out there submitting novels with overt christian themes


I'd say oh yeah - the same way there is an enormous Christian music industry in the U.S.

Facebook has also exposed me to (what seems to me) a crazy big world of Christian "art". And yeah I mean art in italics. I had no idea this was going on until a few years ago. I'd run into the occasional Christian bookstore in the past but it's a much bigger business sector than I'd realized.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 03:59 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
The two main sponsors are David C Cook publishing and B&H Publishing Group - both specialist christian materials publishing, although their sites push mostly biblical stuff, some non-fiction and kids lit. From their perspective this is business, but it just feels weird that the dominant religious culture might be attracted to niche marketing. Which is what I meant about 'ghettoising'. I guess I'm a little naive to be surprised that ALJ is sponsoring the event as well. It's almost like that's confirmation that it's catering to a minority.


it's not a minority

I'd recommend some time reading online papers from the U.S. bible belt. Fascinating stuff.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Feb, 2013 04:00 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
Pick any genre and make it have the same 'flavour/perspective/world view'.


yes

that is exactly what it is meant to do

don't rock the boat baby
0 Replies
 
 

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