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God Seems Cruel.

 
 
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 10:37 pm
How could a loving God simply damn people to hell, because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their savior? What if, hypothetically, someone was as good and honest as a person could possibly be. Then, one day, they take a bullet to the head for someone, rather than that person be shot. Are they damned to Hell, for not sharing beliefs with Christians? I'm asking this honestly, because I want this to make some more sense to me. Maybe I don't understand or know enough on this subject. But, to me, this seems harsh. How could a loving God be so quick to damn someone to eternal torture, simply because he didn't accept that God is real? Is it not rational for one to assume that, since there is absence of evidence, there is absence of truth? Truth can only be proven with evidence, and there is no physical evidence of the existence of God. Therefore, this person has just died saving someone else, and has lived a good and honest live... yet, they are denied passage into the kingdom of Heaven? This seems wrong. Cruel. I've been searching for answers to so many questions about the seemingly cruelness of God. About the hypocrisy that Christians seem to all share. Someone, give me a straightforward answer to this. I only ever get backwards answers, and answers that seem to touch only the edge of my questions.
 
Ceili
 
  4  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 11:26 pm
@TheParadoxik,
Hell is on earth. It doesn't exist anywhere else but in the fevered minds of the superstitious.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 12:02 am
@TheParadoxik,
i am a Buddhist but my understanding is the the christian position is that God can be cruel, that God loves us, and that humans routinely are cruel towards the people that we love so where do we get off bitching that God does it too?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 06:08 am
@TheParadoxik,
TheParadoxik wrote:
How could a loving God simply damn people to hell, because they haven't accepted Jesus Christ as their savior?
It couldn't. It's a ridiculous proposition.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 06:12 am
@TheParadoxik,
it's his (if indeed he/she/it exists) version of
no shoes
no shirts
no service

shop elsewhere if you don't want to comply

i do

tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 06:32 am
@djjd62,
I hear Gawd loves kicking puppies and drowns kittens in burlap sacks as well. Sad
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 06:43 am
@TheParadoxik,
Quote:
I want this to make some more sense to me


Why ? Logic is to religion, as geometry is to fashion.
djjd62
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 06:49 am
@fresco,
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5hTP9Nm8pyw/T6xCxXXrx2I/AAAAAAAAAaQ/2NNHwOyTpEY/s1600/geometric+paper+fashion.jpg
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 06:51 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
I want this to make some more sense to me


Why ? Logic is to religion, as geometry is to fashion.

I think I understand where you're aiming for but your analogy is a tad broken/misleading (if I understand your intent).

Sewing patterns are basically highly complicated geometry without the math calculations to figure. One needs a fundamental understanding of geometry when creating works of fashion or you'd end up making a third arm on a jacket, etc.... Razz

How about, Logic is to religion as classical music composition is to animal husbandry? Wink
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:01 am
@tsarstepan,
The implication is that the details of religion are idiosyncratic and not bound by consistent logic. In the same way fashion, does not need to adhere to rules of symmetry etc. Indeed, if it did, it would be pretty boring. Also fashion is four dimensional in the sense that it is constantly changing, as do interpretations of religion, despite the claims of religionists to be stating "eternal truths".
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 07:08 am
@fresco,
Thanks for the explanation. I figured I actually wasn't looking at the analogy in the correct light. Very good point well made. Smile
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:27 am
@djjd62,
Good image. (No cuddling!)
0 Replies
 
Sins Of The Wicked
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 01:17 pm
@TheParadoxik,
I've asked this same question to a lot of people. Christianity indeed relies solely on eternal damnation for its twisted doctrines to work, although I personally don't believe that Jesus even mentioned hell in his preachings. The word he used for hell was Gehenna.

The definition

Gehenna- noun: The valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, where propitiatory sacrifices were made to Moloch. II Kings 23:10. A deep narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem where adulterous jews offered their children as sacrifice. It afterwards became a receptical for the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of the animals, criminals and all kinds of filth were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning.

In my opinion jesus used it as a literal thing. But the Christian ideology believes that Gehenna was used as a metaphor to describe a literal, spiritual, everlasting, damnation. According to their dogma there are only two options, heaven or hell. One only attained by accepting Jesus as a savior and the son of god, the other by not believing it. So in your question, according to Christian belief the man would go to hell regardless of his good deeds unless he accepts and believes the Jesus/saviour proposition. I asked a Christian friend of mine the same question and he said, "If it was as easy as just doing good deeds, there would be no need for Jesus.".

Something that may be of interest to note is that, in the jewish doctrines everyone goes to go back to the Godhead. They do have a punishment/ limbo as a purification of the spirit after death but its a temporary process. The vast majority of the Talmud and Torah doesn't teach much of death rather, its ment as a guide as a way to live your life so you reach god quicker. It may be useful to keep in mind that this was also the religion of Jesus, its what he was taught and believed as well. The hell proposal is intended as a way to scare people into beliving the christ/savior christian theory. Ill leave you with a quote by a preacher to ponder on.

“We preachers do not preach hell enough, and we do not say enough about sin. We talk about the gospel and wonder why people are not interested in what we say. Of course they are not interested. No man is interested in a piece of good news unless he has the consciousness of
needing it; no man is interested in an offer of salvation unless he knows that there is something from which he needs to be saved. It is quite useless to ask a man to adopt the Christian view of the gospel unless he first has the Christian view of sin.". - J. Gresham Machen taken from: Sin’s Wages and God’s Gift.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 02:54 pm
Yea.

Here's George:
George Carlin
On Religion
ObjectiveThought.com
12-23-5

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy ****!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of **** you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever **** things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a ****. Doesn't give a ****, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a ****, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to **** that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and **** up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the **** bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't **** around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that ********** out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

(Copyright 1999 by George Carlin. Printed without permission.)
Enzo
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 03:03 pm
@Joe Nation,
I LOVE YOU JESUS PLEASE DONT KILL ME LIKE YOU KILLED MR CARLIN!!!! PLEASE!!!
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/sad/crying-fountain.gif

(sarcastic joke)
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