What America Owes The World...

Ahh, back to the characterizations of the world as beggars in leiu of an intellectual argument. Nevermind CQ, I halfway expected this.

It buys a lot of rice and water though. It also buys quite a considerable amount in many foriegn countries were the foreign aid is going. Many people work for less than a dollar a day and do quite a bit of work for that pittance. So, while you waste your money on smokes and gas, our foriegn aid is buying food and medicine for those that need it.

I'm not an idiot, McG, these are givens in a discussion of the ends to which foreign aid is put. That does not alter that the world is more expensive in absolute terms now than it was 42 years ago, including the price of a sack of rice, as well as the cost of providing potable water.

Ahh, back to reducing any argument you don't agree with as not intellectual. Nevermind CdK. I halfway expected this.

It wasn't a reduction at all, you did indeed, characterize foreign aid in such manner, conviniently disregarding that it often does not work that way (see Israel). If you think that your characterizations of foreign aid as handouts and the recipients beggars is an intellectual argument then you are welcome to your opinion.

We differ greatly in regard to what we consider an argument at all, much less an intellectual one.

We've had this before, and quite recently. It is an argument that ignores that our nation was formed from existant, properous colonies, which, to the extent that the aboriginal population was invisible, had a vast empty continent at their disposal. It ignores that in 1787, our citizenry was as technologically advanced and as intellectually well-informed as was any other population on the planet. It ignores that credit instruments were understood, established and in use at the foundation of our nation. It ignores the security from external threat represented by two wide oceans on our flanks which protected us throughout most of our history. It ignores that the open spaces of the nation provided a refuge for the crackpot and the sociopath, as well as a pressure relief which does not exist in modern third world nations. Apples to oranges, big time . . .

Indeed, the suggestion that others "learn" from us in many ways suggests for them to go off and colonialize some prime real estate.

Maybe CQ is suggesting that they move here?

Fine. Then point it out without the pompousity. If you see a flaw in my reasoning, then point it out. I'm not made of glass; I can handle fair criticism. What I can't stand is that sense of intellectual superiority.

If my argument is so weak and fragile, it should be easy to debunk without reducing yourself to,
"Ahh, back to the characterizations of the world as beggars in leiu of an intellectual argument. Nevermind CQ, I halfway expected this."

As far as charactizing the world as beggars, what would you call someone who asks for help, complains when they don't get enough, then questions the moral integritiy of the giver for not giving enough? I call such a person, a beggar. If identifing A as A is anti-intellectual, I guess you're welcome to your opinion.

Is this the case with the entire world? Of course not, and you're wrong for trying to imply that that was my point.

Every now and then, I meet someone with whom, for some reason, I can't communicate. We just never really understand each other... it happens. Some people are just on different wavelengths, so to speak.

I'm starting to think that those of you who are participating in this rediculous argument, constantly having to re-explain yourselves are just on different wavelenghts.

I just can't read this anymore.

It is a different wavelenght L.R.R. Some people are simply more giving and generous than others. Others would gladly shove many others down if it would let them accumilate and hoard more wealth.

What the latter class should atleast acknowledge is that helping the world become a better off place with a strong middle class will unquestionably reap many rewards for us as well in the long run.

The more people out there that can afford goods and services, the stronger the global and domestic economy becomes, the more valuable our goods and services become.

CQ, those are contradicting statements. But nevermind that.

I am not a humble person, and try as I might it will probably rub you the wrong way. I can appreciate this because your condescension about the world and haughty nationalist postion does the same for me.

Nevertheless, I am certain that I will be unable to divest you of a feeling of intellectual condescension when you discuss things with me, regardless of any effort I give to ameliorate it.



There was no argument at all, just the haughty nationalism. I made no attempt to debunk it as it's tedious to tackle. You did however attempt an argument below, which I will reply to.



At present, a figment of your imagination. Cite ONE such example.



Well, if you simply have to make up spades to call spades then you might note that my qualm is with the disconnect with reality and not the terminology.

Are you suggesting that the fall in the percentage tells us something meaningful? Are we supposed to infer that it is bad that the percentage fell, or are we to suspect that it actually required a lower percentage today to achieve similar results as compared with what was necessary 40 years ago? (Of course, the logical choice to me is to recognize that the percentage tells us nothing in and of itself. It is meaningless without other data.)

Which ones of us?

(And I might easily write that some of you don't seem to be able to stop criticizing the USA. :wink: )

I frankly don't care what you infer. Play your silly game of trying to put word's in another member's mouth with someone else, it bores me, and i feel not at all compelled to argue on terms you want to establish for the convenience of your argument.

I think there is a fair amount of this in A2K, and sometimes it's easier to attribute it to malice on the part of the other side, rather than just recognize the disconnect. It's hard not to be frustrated by it though.

Well, I can see that. I would never tell people what to do with their money, but when someone obviously has more money than they can spend in a lifetime, I can't help but secretly wish that they would donate to education or orphans... something like that. Those people could really help with some needy causes. I personally want enough money to be able to retire and not have to worry about expenses, but that's nothing compared to the millions and billions that some people have accumulated.

Scrat, thanks for the sentiment. Sometimes I get frustrated seeing people backpeddle for no good reason... and sometimes I just skip those parts and move on.

These are valid points, worthy of their own discussion, so I've created one: Talking Past Each Other!

I hope we can discuss our lack of understanding of each other's positions there without slanging matches ensuing!

The problem with foreign aid is that it's a political shell game and a waste of money. Little of the money reaches the intended targets. Instead most of it enriches the rulers and helps them stay in power to continue the policies that keep their countries poor. We should eliminate all foreign aid by government.

Here's why I'm against sending money to South Africa for AIDS.

About 21,000 cases of child rape were reported to the police in the past year, most committed by male relatives of the victims.

The attacks are fueled by the myth that sex with a virgin will protect a man against AIDS or even cure him of the incurable disease.

It's estimated 1 in 3 children is a victim of sexual abuse.


Child-rape epidemic
in South Africa
Fueled by widespread belief that sex with virgin cures AIDS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Anthony C. LoBaido
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com


A bizarre belief among many African black men that sex with a virgin -- even a child or baby -- can cure HIV/AIDS is fueling what is already one of the highest child sexual exploitation rates in the world.

According to the latest report by South Africa's Police Service, children are the victims of 41 percent of all rapes and attempted rapes reported in the country. Over 15 percent of all reported rapes are against children under 11, and another 26 percent against children 12-17. For the year 2000, some 58 children were raped or the victims of rape attempts in South Africa every single day.

The trend is worsening. Babies as young as only a few months old are being raped almost daily. Many black South African men infected with AIDS erroneously believe that by having sex with a virgin -- even a baby -- they will be cured of AIDS or their HIV infection.

South African police statistics show that last year alone, 21,538 rapes and attempted rapes of children under the age of 18 were reported. The KwaZulu-Natal province, which includes Durban, where concern has already been expressed over the sharp rise in child abuse cases, was top of the list with 4,797 reported cases in 2000, followed by Gauteng province (formerly Transvaal, which includes Johannesburg) with 4,316.

For the first six months of 2001, some 10,242 cases were reported, and once again KwaZulu-Natal recorded the highest figure with 2,236, followed by Gauteng with 2,076.

This level of crime contrasts with 1994, for example, when a total of 7,559 cases were reported – about one third of the current level. The figure increased dramatically over the next three years and in 1997 stood at 15,336.

It is believed that a large percentage of incidents go unreported, and police have launched extensive campaigns to inform women and children of their rights.

Police said research conducted over the past five years indicated that in 83 percent of sexual abuse cases, the perpetrators were known to their victims.

"This story has been largely ignored by the mainstream media in the United States and the Western world, in order to perpetuate the Mandela myth of the wonderful New South Africa," said former Republic of South Africa military intelligence officer Koos Ven der Merwe.

And Debbie Coetzee, a South African police detective who specializes in rape cases told WND the situation for babies in South Africa will probably "get worse before it gets better."

"Did you ever read 'Heart of Darkness'? she asked. "Well, we are way beyond that point and well on our way towards barbarism. Abortion, pornography, filthy TV shows and movies, lack of respect for women and children, coddling criminals and rapists, these have all contributed to this crisis."

Durban resident Marilyn Kemp described baby rape as a horrible problem that South Africans must begin to address. "Though people feel strongly about it nothing still is being done to deter these men -- their sentences are light," she said. "I feel that only international publicity and fervent prayer will bring some results."

The incidents of baby rape in South Africa are truly horrifying. Reports by the South African Press Association contain items such as these:


On Nov. 11, a nine-month-old baby girl from Kimberley in the Northern Cape who survived a gang rape underwent a full hysterectomy and will require further surgery to repair intestinal damage, a hospital spokesperson said. The baby from Louisville was left unattended by her 16-year-old mother when six Upington men allegedly raped her. The baby had undergone a full hysterectomy and she suffered extensive damage to her colon and anus as well The six men, aged between 22 and 66, appeared in the Kimberley Magistrates Court on charges of rape and indecent assault on Monday.

This past Halloween, on October 31, a month-old baby girl was raped, allegedly by her uncles, in Tweeling in the Eastern Free State Police spokesperson Loraine Kalp said the mother of the child had left the baby in the care of the men when she went to visit her mother-in-law. Upon her return last night, she found the baby crying and as she lifted her, she saw blood on her bottom. She then took the baby to a clinic where she was told the girl had been raped and sustained vaginal damage. In other reported cases, rapists have gone beyond penile penetration, using objects including broken bottle tops, sticks or harmful liquids that are pushed or inserted into the victim's vagina. But police now say these brutal criminals are sure to be arrested and positively linked to their crimes.
AIDS babies in garbage dump

Equally shocking is the growing phenomenon of black babies with AIDS being thrown away in dumps around the nation, say South Africa police intelligence officials.

South African social worker Fiona Brophy says she has had enough, and that she plans to spend five days living inside a black plastic garbage bag atop the rotting rubbish dump at the Athlone refuse transfer station to draw international attention to the terrifying and growing problem. Brophy will live inside a black plastic bag day and night without even basic amenities, say reports in the South African media.

Brophy wants to create awareness of the huge number of newborn babies dumped in rubbish bins or abandoned in desolate spots, and to help raise funds for a community-based home for AIDS orphans.

"I want to express solidarity with all those tiny children who never had a chance to live in this world, and to make all those desperate mothers aware that there are alternatives to dumping babies," she told SAPA, the South African Press Association.

Brophy, who works at Little Angels, a non-profit organization for abandoned babies and AIDS orphans, said it was the chilling death statistics found in forensic units -- like "female infant, full-term in black plastic bag, discovered next to container" -- that had prompted her to take action.

"Many of these babies can be saved and have thrived in the past with the right love and care," she said.

Brophy told the South African Press Association she became aware of the plight of abandoned babies when she started working at Little Angels, the home of Phillip and Pat van Rensburg who have cared for more than 70 abused, abandoned or HIV-positive babies since 1997.

"I was so touched by the babies, even though some were there for such a short time. I started thinking of the ones who don't make it," said Brophy, who hopes to raise one million rand to support them with her dump demonstration.

The Renburgs told SAPA they believe that people should leave their unwanted babies at police stations, hospitals, welfare agencies, or contact Little Angels.




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Cerealkiller

I'd say that the misunderstandings held by the South African people in the article you quote, and their horrific consequences, are EXACTLY why money should be spent on eductation of these people, provision of condoms, etc.

We have the privilege of eductation and access to information - the world's poor do not.

KP

KP - Is it your contention that SA lacks the resources to educate its people, or police such crime? Or is it more likely a matter of mismanagement by an inept and corrupt government? If the latter, isn't any aid we send just throwing good money after bad? In other words, if they aren't trying to fix this problem already with what money they have, is it rational to think that they will suddenly get it right simply because we give them more?

Sometimes it isn't that money is lacking, but that the people on the ground aren't doing what needs to be done.