What America Owes The World...

husker wrote:

Interesting discussion - wish I had got in here earlier.

So which Peter we going to rob to pay Paul? Or Tax? Offer Solutions??

There are innumerable sources of income that could be diverted to aid. A small - no, relatively miniscule - cut in military spending could revolutionize foriegn aid as we know it, for example.

However, I would support a slight tax increase to bring our aid levels up to the 1% GDP target I mentioned earlier.

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Brilliant points ILZ. I've rarely witnessed someone who can back up their arguements so consistently with actual facts.

This is a quote from http://www.able2know.com/forums/posting.php?mode=quote&p=626429

but I believe it applies to this situation very well...

Setanta wrote:

ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:
Your life belongs to you and you alone. By extension the efforts of that life belong to you and you alone. It then follows that the fruits of that effort belong to you and you alone.

This is specious contention. "The fruits of that effort" cannot bloom, quicken and ripen without the complete panoply of society's efforts. Were you a solitary hunter/gatherer, making your own tools, your thesis might apply. We live in interdependent socities which cannot function without all the little cogs and wheels which we each of us represent. You many not agree with the Mountie's statements about moral obligation, but this species of crap conservative statement claiming "rugged individualism" are nothing but hot air.

This whole concept that America is as prosperous as it is without leeching off the world is prepostrous. We export trillions upon trillions in profits through everything from coke and mcdonalds to movies. Yet we pass harsh tariffs and regulations to prevent other nations from excelling in the areas they would. Europe is arguably even more guilty of this. We don't live in a vaccume. Much of our success can be attributed to the rest of the world. Thus it's idiotic to suggest that we don't owe the world anything.

And this whole "teach a man to fish" concept isn't valid either. There are plenty of charities and organizations that circumvent corrupt governments and are dedicated to and have proven very effective precisely in teaching men to fish, get an education, start a business etc. There are many means through which we can make our aid effective, make sure it reaches the people it's supposed to. These organizations ensure that every penny of aid goes towards these products instead of on overhead and paper work.

We stand to gain as much as anyone from the world ikmproving itself. The more prosperous the world becomes, the more poor people in poor counties that educate themselves, employ themselves, and reach middle class ranks, the more people to whom we can market our goods as well.

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ConstantlyQuestioning, he wrote

Quote:

One premise of yours ILZ that I'd like to challenge is that actual numbers don't matter, only percentages; it's not how much we give, but how much we could give. I think it's quite the opposite. If we can give more actual dollars than some or most countries, but still give less in percentage, why not? Why is that a problem? That is still a lot of money.

and

Quote:

If I were poor and a rich man gave me free money, I would thank him, and not scold him for not giving me enough.

I think there are a lot of poorly understood questions underneath this.

America is an apparatus, and a nation, and human beings. It is a system.
A system interacts with its environment, taking inputs, giving outputs and transforming internally.
How much does America give, you ask, and is it enough?
First we should ask, how much does America take?
America takes oil. America takes raw materials. America takes labour of chinese and vietnamese children. America takes gold, diamonds, steel,
What does America give?
America gives computer chips and medicine. America also gives nuclear weapons. America gives Coca-cola and Nike brand - but takes the labor that goes into production of real products.

America is polluting, America is destroying, America is cutting rainforests.

We cannot even speak about the information that America gives and takes - american way of living, american ideals, american pop culture, american greed for money. The impacts of western civilisation on african and south american tribes were studied somewhat, but still not enough.

We have just one world, as Knopfler says, and we cannot improve our future while thinking petty and small.

What do you mean by 'How much does America give'?

Dont you see it is far better to give medicine production knowledge and cure the world, who can then work on repairing the rain forest, who can work on your new PC parts that you can then buy cheaply.

Do you think America is some isolated world disconnected from all the problems, and whats more, your living room with your TV set and your petty small life is something out of it somehow?

The fact is, that we all take far more than we make. We take oil deep from the earth, we take minerals, we take fresh water, we take meat from animals, we take fruits from the trees.
What do we make? Mostly, we make ****.

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Something that could help other countries that need aid is in the area of education. Let them learn to do more for themselves. I'm all for helping them, but the money doesn't seem to be helping much.

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IronLionZion wrote:

I wasn't bashing Bush - I can do that in other threads - I was merely pointing out that he failed to keep his 15 billion dollar promise.

Actually, you were claiming that the House failed to keep Bush's 15 Billion dollar promise. That you keep stating it as Bush's failing... that's the bashing part. Cool

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There must never be, not ever, any criticism of the Emperor's new clothes . . .

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And here, to derail the discussion.... SETANTA! Give him a big hand, ladies and gentlemen, then sit back and watch as he adds nothing in content and simply attacks and baits those actually discussing the issues...

(Anybody got any popcorn? This should be fun!) Cool

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What attack?

Feeling a little paranoid today, Boss?

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we're surrounded, they are on all 3 sides of us. dont count your bridges til you burn their chickens.

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ConstantlyQuestioning brings up a good point and corrolary to the question "What does America owe the World?" That being: What does the World owe America?

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Scrat wrote:

IronLionZion wrote:
I wasn't bashing Bush - I can do that in other threads - I was merely pointing out that he failed to keep his 15 billion dollar promise.

Actually, you were claiming that the House failed to keep Bush's 15 Billion dollar promise. That you keep stating it as Bush's failing... that's the bashing part.

I hold Bush responsible for flaunting his promises for months on end, only to be proven impotent by the House when he lacked the political capital to back himself up. Again:

You know as well as I what kind of politics goes on to ensure that bills get passed. Its routine.

The fact that the Bush administration flaunted thier hefty promises for months only to be proven impotent by the House...doesn't reflect well on them.

I wasn't bashing Bush - I can do that in other threads - I was merely pointing out that he failed to keep his 15 billion dollar promise.

Scrat wrote:

And here, to derail the discussion....

This coming from someone whose modus operandi thus far has been to tentatively prod with meaningless questions, rather than constructing and defending his own stance. Someone who attempts to derail the discussion into Bush land when confronted with facts that sink his quasi-arguments. Ever hear of the new Scrat Navy? The ships were built with glass bottoms so passengers could look at the old Scrat Navy.

Har.

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ILZ - Sometimes when a question means nothing to you, it means that you have failed to understand the meaning, not that there is none there.

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The other day, upon the stair,
I saw an idea that wasn't there.
It wasn't there again today,
I truly wish it would go away . . .

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Scrat wrote:

ILZ - Sometimes when a question means nothing to you, it means that you have failed to understand the meaning, not that there is none there.

Your patented style of asking questions of others, while never answering those questions yourself, or responding to the retorts aimed at you, is just a transparent ploy to hide your singular intellectual bankruptcy.

In fact, now that I think about it, you haven't even taken a stand on whether or not you support an increase in foriegn aid. Given this, your accusations are laughable.

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If nothing else, ILZ, I'm glad to have given you reason to laugh today. :wink:

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Quote:

ConstantlyQuestioning brings up a good point and corrolary to the question "What does America owe the World?" That being: What does the World owe America?

Thank you Scrat. I wonder if saving Europe from Nazism and Asia from Japanese Imperialism could be considered Foreign Aid. How many millions of dollars were spent and how many American lives paid for that aid.

Was the act of protecting Europe from Soviet expansionism an act of Foreign Aid?

Those crummy Americans, they never do anything for the world.

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I wish I had a stopwatch so I could time how long it takes for someone to attack you for standing up for the US. Shocked

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CQ, i think it undeniable that both Germany and Japan, during the cold war years, developed their respective healthy enconomies behind an American shield. It should not be forgotten, however, that having east Asian bases, and having bases in central Europe were in our proximate national interest at the time, as things were then viewed. In Kennedy's The Decline of the Great Powers, he suggests that the German and Japanese economies were unfettered (relatively) by "defense" spending, and although i don't recall the specifics, the figure was well under 5% of government expenditures.

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ConstantlyQuestioning wrote:

Quote:
ConstantlyQuestioning brings up a good point and corrolary to the question "What does America owe the World?" That being: What does the World owe America?

Thank you Scrat. I wonder if saving Europe from Nazism and Asia from Japanese Imperialism could be considered Foreign Aid. How many millions of dollars were spent and how many American lives paid for that aid.

Was the act of protecting Europe from Soviet expansionism an act of Foreign Aid?

Those crummy Americans, they never do anything for the world.

Yawn! How much self interest was there in those actions?

Please - Britain may have its own issues with other European countries but we don't go saying "we saved you from yourselves in WWII", do we?

You can stop that watch, Scrat! Laughing

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Quote:

Yawn! How much self interest was there in those actions?

Yawn! A lot of self interest was involved. What's wrong with self-interest? Is an act is only good if there is no self-interest involved in the act?

Quote:

i think it undeniable that both Germany and Japan, during the cold war years, developed their respective healthy enconomies behind an American shield.

the German and Japanese economies were unfettered (relatively) by "defense" spending,

Germany and Japan: you're welcome.

Quote:

having east Asian bases, and having bases in central Europe were in our proximate national interest at the time

Again I ask, is an act only good if it has no self-interest involved?

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What America Owes The World...

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