spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 03:38 am
@OmSigDAVID,
That's prescriptivism Dave.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 06:10 am
@JTT,

Quote:
But what you're missing, Frank, big time, in your zeal to cast yourself as some moderate on language, is that this middle ground does not include the very "rules" [actually the one you tried to correct Joe England on] that plant you squarely in the realm of the extreme.


Actually, JTT, I am not missing anything here, big time or small time. You, on the other hand, are missing the fact that I am not missing what you think I am missing.

That huge (!) correction that I made in my first post amounted to damn near nothing. I gave an opinion on a question asked. Here it is in its entirety:


Quote:
I don't think you do. The period would be incorrect; the comma is correct...and I think a colon would also work, although the comma is preferred.

Your first clause gives pause. The word "their" is probably incorrect...and the "they" in the second clause also seems incorrect.


"The comma" by damn near every standard would be preferable to the period in the question asked.

As for the first clause...it does give pause TO ME. But rather than be a doofus, I was circumspect, using "probably" and "seems."

Sorry you see something as innocuous as that as being "squarely in the realm of the extreme," but here in A2K, one gotsta put up with all sorts of opinions--and you are certainly entitled to yours. If you want to see that comment of mine as a lie and as "spreading falsehoods"...that is your prerogative.

Quote:
You don't like being categorized as being in one of the utter insane groups and yet what is more insane, Frank, than advancing rules that are terrible descriptions of the English language.


I am astonished that you asked that question, JTT, but I thank you for doing so. I think there are many, many more insane things than that...one of which would be to identify what I said as insane--which, of course, is what you did.

Going on with the fervor you have brought to this minor infraction (if it can even be classified as that) for over 30 pages in an Internet forum, JTT, is a hell of a lot closer to insane.

I hope that answers your unexpected, but very welcome, question.

Quote:
Let me repeat what your "new found friend" says of the very rule that led to this long discussion:

"Many prescriptive rules originated for screwball reasons, impede clear and graceful prose, and have been flouted by English’s greatest writers for centuries."

This [regarding 'everyone/their'] was all explained to you right from the get go, but you went off on tangent after tangent. One has to wonder why, Frank. It doesn't at all seem to reflect the level of honesty you like to portray. It certainly doesn't square with your signature line.


Hey, I getcha, JTT. You do want to think of me as dishonest and somehow less than ethical.

No problemo, friend!

I want you to have a great day...and if doing so helps make your life more tolerable, I am up to dealing with it.

My game have been at a peak during a last two weeks...I are on cloud ten!
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 06:14 am
@JTT,
Quote:
Prescriptions that don't accurately describe language are worthless to all thinking linguists, grammarians and language experts, Frank, including Steven Pinker.


Obviously not worthless to everyone, JTT. Look at all the mileage you have gotten from this prescription that does not, in your opinion, accurately describe language.


Quote:
What you are saying with this argument is that students shouldn't think; that they should be automatons that simply memorize vacuous rules. That's what has gotten y'all into all this trouble. The crap that is taught in US schools [yes, others too] has made US students as grammatically incompetent as their main mentors.


Gosh, I did not say anyone should not think. I think they should think. I even think you should think. But if there is a test...and if you want to score as high as possible on the test...and if the teacher thinks the sky is mostly green and teaches that it is...I think a student should write "mostly green" in answer to a question from that teacher about the color of the sky.

The student can think the teacher a complete asshole outside of the test!
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 08:55 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Obviously not worthless to everyone, JTT. Look at all the mileage you have gotten from this prescription that does not, in your opinion, accurately describe language.


Inane drivel, Frank. More in a long list of inane drivel. You have been all over the map but you have not once addressed the actual issue. You ignore, completely, any information that points up, clearly, just how silly this 'rule' is, how it was a concocted rule.

Now, see below, you come up with a further inanity.

Quote:
But if there is a test...and if you want to score as high as possible on the test...and if the teacher thinks the sky is mostly green and teaches that it is...I think a student should write "mostly green" in answer to a question from that teacher about the color of the sky.


Evidently, that's how you and a lot of other Americans have spent their lives, Frank - pablum swallowers. Education is meant to challenge, encouraging students to think. That you can advance this nonsense is really telling.

Given your "education" you find it impossible to address the actual issue. You've been trained, and trained well to do song and dance routines instead of addressing the issue.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 08:57 am
@spendius,
Moreover, that's your normal idiocy, Dave.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 08:57 am
@spendius,

Quote:
That's prescriptivism Dave.


Moreover, that's your normal idiocy, Dave.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 09:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
That huge (!) correction that I made in my first post amounted to damn near nothing. I gave an opinion on a question asked. Here it is in its entirety:


[]Your first clause gives pause. The word "their" is probably incorrect...and the "they" in the second clause also seems incorrect.[/i]


As for the first clause...it does give pause TO ME. But rather than be a doofus, I was circumspect, using "probably" and "seems."

Sorry you see something as innocuous as that as being "squarely in the realm of the extreme," but here in A2K, one gotsta put up with all sorts of opinions--and you are certainly entitled to yours. If you want to see that comment of mine as a lie and as "spreading falsehoods"...that is your prerogative.


It's not at all surprising that "it does give pause TO ME". You have to consider your background, the "instruction" you have been subjected to over your lifetime.

It's hardly circumspect of one to advance a falsehood that you knew to be a falsehood. It's hardly a balanced approach to ignore all the facts which illustrate that this rule is bogus. You were given the same information when you tried to correct H2oman and still you took the extreme approach with Joe England. What else can it be but a lie, Frank? When one knows that this silly nonsense has been debunked.

Joe England gave a response that should have given you [and Roberta] pause. But Roberta, the editor, fled, stating that there is no use discussing the issue, her mind is made up and nothing anyone could say would change her mind.

That people seize and cling to such "arguments" in defense of these prescriptions really should have given you pause, Frank.

But on you trudged, even ignoring Joe England's completely rational explanation, which, didn't give you a moment's pause. You have hung on here for days and numerous posts, ignoring the facts, ignoring all those things that would give a thinking person pause, and you still haven't had the decency to apologize to Joe or H2oman.

You advanced this knowing full well that there was ample reason to, at the very least, consider that it was in dispute.

How can what you initially said be anything but a lie, Frank?

No, a "sorry that you think it's a lie, but to me it isn't" doesn't fly. The facts, those pesky little things that you are so adept at ignoring, tell a much different story.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 09:56 am
@JTT,
JTT, I'll get back to ya later.

Try to calm down. We are, as I mentioned before, talking about a comma...not the start of World War III.

Gotta watch The Open right now. Don't have time to correct all your errors and misimpressions.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 10:21 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
We are, as I mentioned before, talking about a comma


No, Frank, we have never been talking about a comma. Punctuation was never at issue.

Quote:
Try to calm down.


When you come back, try to be rational.

You know what Mark Twain said about golf, don't you?

Golf is a fine walk spoiled.

Watching golf is just more stuffed pablum.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 12:50 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Quote:
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
We are, as I mentioned before, talking about a comma


No, Frank, we have never been talking about a comma. Punctuation was never at issue.


Yeah, it was. The question that started this discussion was about punctuation. Go read it...you'll see.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Try to calm down.



When you come back, try to be rational.

You know what Mark Twain said about golf, don't you?

Golf is a fine walk spoiled.

Watching golf is just more stuffed pablum.


Yo...I am being rational.

I wish you were being rational also, but you have this anger and angst that seems to rule your life and your conduct. You really, really have to work on that, JTT.

Really!

Sorry you do not like golf...and that you try to put it down like you try to put down so many discussion partners. You really have got to work on that also.

Reply to your earlier posts to follow.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 12:56 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Obviously not worthless to everyone, JTT. Look at all the mileage you have gotten from this prescription that does not, in your opinion, accurately describe language.



Inane drivel, Frank. More in a long list of inane drivel. You have been all over the map but you have not once addressed the actual issue. You ignore, completely, any information that points up, clearly, just how silly this 'rule' is, how it was a concocted rule.

Now, see below, you come up with a further inanity.


No inane drivel coming from me, JTT. I have addressed the actual issue. Obviously you have ignored it when I do.

Of course the rule was concocted. All rules are concocted. You do realize that, do you not?

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But if there is a test...and if you want to score as high as possible on the test...and if the teacher thinks the sky is mostly green and teaches that it is...I think a student should write "mostly green" in answer to a question from that teacher about the color of the sky.



Evidently, that's how you and a lot of other Americans have spent their lives, Frank - pablum swallowers. Education is meant to challenge, encouraging students to think. That you can advance this nonsense is really telling.

Given your "education" you find it impossible to address the actual issue. You've been trained, and trained well to do song and dance routines instead of addressing the issue.


Yes, some people are taught rules of grammar…and they try to follow them. I see nothing wrong with that. Some people treat some rules of grammar as if they are more important than an invasion from outer space by aliens intent on annihilating the human race. You seem to do that. I do see something wrong with that. That is why I am recommending that you seek professional help for the problem. Really, I think you would improve your life if you sought the help.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 01:09 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
It's not at all surprising that "it does give pause TO ME". You have to consider your background, the "instruction" you have been subjected to over your lifetime.


Good, I am glad you do not find it surprising. Now, if you can just gain control over your anger and angst...lots of good can come from this.

Quote:
It's hardly circumspect of one to advance a falsehood that you knew to be a falsehood.


Why do you consider a grammatical mistake (if it is a mistake...which it isn't to everyone)...to be a falsehood. And why do you get so worked up over something as minor as this?


Quote:
It's hardly a balanced approach to ignore all the facts which illustrate that this rule is bogus.


The rule is not bogus. It may be unnecessary.


Quote:
You were given the same information when you tried to correct H2oman and still you took the extreme approach with Joe England.


You keep saying that, but I have not seen a citation so that I can respond to it.


Quote:
What else can it be but a lie, Frank? When one knows that this silly nonsense has been debunked.


It could be a mistake.

Quote:
Joe England gave a response that should have given you [and Roberta] pause. But Roberta, the editor, fled, stating that there is no use discussing the issue, her mind is made up and nothing anyone could say would change her mind.


Please tell me what you are talking about here?

Quote:
That people seize and cling to such "arguments" in defense of these prescriptions really should have given you pause, Frank.


When someone like you is making such a huge deal out of this thing...I prefer to concentrate on that. You are giving me pause, JTT.

Quote:
But on you trudged, even ignoring Joe England's completely rational explanation, which, didn't give you a moment's pause. You have hung on here for days and numerous posts, ignoring the facts, ignoring all those things that would give a thinking person pause, and you still haven't had the decency to apologize to Joe or H2oman.


What explanation? That he did not know the sex of the person who asked him to edit the sentence? Are you kidding around here?

Why would I possibly have to apologize for offering an opinion? Why would I possibly take lessons in politeness from someone like you?

Quote:
You advanced this knowing full well that there was ample reason to, at the very least, consider that it was in dispute.


That what was in dispute?

Quote:
How can what you initially said be anything but a lie, Frank?


Easily. All you have to be is calm and logical...which you seem to have trouble being.

Quote:
No, a "sorry that you think it's a lie, but to me it isn't" doesn't fly. The facts, those pesky little things that you are so adept at ignoring, tell a much different story.


If you say so! You certainly are exercised today, JTT. You gotta get a grip my friend.

I am still enjoying our discussion here, JTT. Not as much as I enjoyed watching The Open, but that is almost a given, right?

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 01:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Just more inane drivel, Frank. You seem to be of the opinion that when Frank Apisa speaks his opinion, it actually matters.

The issue is 'everyone/their' and you haven't addressed it in any substantial manner. The best you've done is commiserate with Roberta.

Quote:
Yes, some people are taught rules of grammar…and they try to follow them. I see nothing wrong with that.


Of course you don't see anything wrong with that, Frank. That's simply your own personal ignorance of what constitutes a rule of grammar.

Quote:
Of course the rule was concocted. All rules are concocted. You do realize that, do you not?


Here again, your ignorance running wild. We're speaking of the rules of language and no, the rules of language are most certainly not concocted.

"Many people are under the impression that the facts about a given language are all known. Nothing could be farther from the truth."

The Grammar Book - An ESL/EFL Teacher's Course [pg 6]

If the rules were all concocted, you wouldn't have asked Aidan about her 'was'. There would be a voluminous book wherein people could find out about these issues. As you might have noticed, Frank, there isn't. That right there tells you that the rules are not made up.

You have also been given more than enough source material to have made sense of this, that you wouldn't continue to wallow in your ignorance.

You do realize that, do you not?

How is a person to reply to this, Frank? Do they answer 'yes' or 'no' and what would be the fact situation that would cause either a 'yes' or a 'no' to be used?

Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 01:43 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Quote:
Just more inane drivel, Frank. You seem to be of the opinion that when Frank Apisa speaks his opinion, it actually matters.


The issue is 'everyone/their' and you haven't addressed it in any substantial manner. The best you've done is commiserate with Roberta.



The issue is the comma. The “everyone/their” was a sidebar. In any case, I have addressed it.

And as I mentioned, no “drivel” is coming from me.


Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
Yes, some people are taught rules of grammar…and they try to follow them. I see nothing wrong with that.


Of course you don't see anything wrong with that, Frank. That's simply your own personal ignorance of what constitutes a rule of grammar.


Oh gosh, major reversion to angry, angst driven insults. C’mon, JTT…you were doing so well. Don’t give up now.


Quote:
Quote:
Of course the rule was concocted. All rules are concocted. You do realize that, do you not?


Here again, your ignorance running wild. We're speaking of the rules of language and no, the rules of language are most certainly not concocted.


Actually they are. And the gratuitous insults are not necessary. Try to refrain from using them. They make you look foolish...and I do not want to discuss with people who are, or who look, foolish.

Quote:
You have also been given more than enough source material to have made sense of this, that you wouldn't continue to wallow in your ignorance.

You do realize that, do you not?


I realize that you are not willing to acknowledge that rules are concocted...and that you are obsessed with making insulting remarks to others. I suspect you have self-esteem problems you are dealing with this way, but I suggest that seeing a professional would be more fruitful.


Quote:
How is a person to reply to this, Frank? Do they answer 'yes' or 'no' and what would be the fact situation that would cause either a 'yes' or a 'no' to be used?


I think I answered that.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 02:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The “everyone/their” was a sidebar. In any case, I have addressed it.


Point to the place where you "addressed it", Frank.

Quote:
Actually they are.


I showed you with a quote from experts that they aren't. I showed you with an example from real life. You ignored both in favor of your drivel because drivel is all you have. Am I surprised that you are enamored of your drivel, Frank? Not at all.

Quote:
Oh gosh, major reversion to angry, angst driven insults.


Not insults, Frank, merely the truth. The truth hurts, but it is needed. By your own admission, you are not an expert, yet you continue to act like you are.

You just might come to see that tangents and the stark fashion you so readily display in ignoring the issues only highlights your ignorance.
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 02:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
JTT:
How is a person to reply to this, Frank? Do they answer 'yes' or 'no' and what would be the fact situation that would cause either a 'yes' or a 'no' to be used?


Quote:
Frank: I think I answered that.


I don't recall that. If you wouldn't mind, please do so again.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 03:54 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Point to the place where you "addressed it", Frank.


Over there!



Quote:
I showed you with a quote from experts that they aren't. I showed you with an example from real life. You ignored both in favor of your drivel because drivel is all you have. Am I surprised that you are enamored of your drivel, Frank? Not at all.


All rules are concocted, JTT. And I am not offering drivel.

Quote:
Not insults, Frank, merely the truth. The truth hurts, but it is needed. By your own admission, you are not an expert, yet you continue to act like you are.

You just might come to see that tangents and the stark fashion you so readily display in ignoring the issues only highlights your ignorance.


So...you are a very intelligent person discussing this subject with someone you consider ignorant!

Bad form, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, there is a story, probably apocryphal, that before a major battle between Alexander the Great and Darius of Persia, Darius sent a message to Alexander calling Alexander a mere boy…and mentioning that he (Darius) was a great leader of men.

Alexander replied saying, (note the comma) “That was a foolish move. You set up a no-win scenario for yourself. If you beat me in battle, it will be said that you beat a mere boy; but if I beat you, it will be said that Darius was bested by a mere boy.”

Stop with the “you are ignorant, Frank.” I am not ignorant at all, JTT…in fact, I am reasonably intelligent--as are you. We are having a discussion that seems to be taxing on you…and you are allowing yourself to lose control.

Please do not do that. You embarrass yourself and the forum by doing so.


spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 05:10 pm
@Frank Apisa,
What are you two arguing about Frank?

I've lost track.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 06:13 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
What are you two arguing about Frank?

I've lost track.


JTT seems to be arguing that grammar rules in general are not all that important...that people should speak and write as they see fit.

I have acknowledged that grammar rules in general are not all that important...that people should speak and write as they see fit.

JTT is saying that I am ignorant for saying that...and I think he is also saying that I am ignorant in general.


JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 08:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I think that you have taken my observations about your ignorance personally, Frank. You shouldn't because there's no reason that you would be knowledgeable on the complex workings of language. Your ignorance doesn't equate to general stupidity - Omsig doesn't like that definition.

Rather, it's a lack of knowledge about a specific area of study. We are all ignorant of many things. If you've acknowledged that you are not an expert on language you've acknowledged that you are ignorant wrt the workings of language.

Quote:
JTT seems to be arguing that grammar rules in general are not all that important...that people should speak and write as they see fit.


Frank, you simply don't understand all this. It's way beyond you, which means you are ignorant wrt grammar rules. Though you don't have a conscious grasp of grammar, that's actually no problem because you don't need to know or understand [consciously] grammar rules to function.

Quote:
I have acknowledged that grammar rules in general are not all that important...that people should speak and write as they see fit.


From one utterly insane extreme to the other. Grammar rules are exceedingly important. Without them you wouldn't have been able to write this seriously confused post. There are millions of grammar rules.

What isn't important are the phony prescriptions, like the prohibition on singular 'they'.

I guess the upside of this is that you will no longer be chastising folks, mildly or otherwise, on their language use. That's a good thing, Frank, because there are so many incredible things to learn about language. Also, it lends itself to reducing the chances that another generation will be saddled with these fictions.
 

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