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Oatmealing and the new practice of ethical bittorenting

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 09:42 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
a huge chunk of my beloved Baroque music wouldn't exist without patrons of the arts

But any printer who wanted to sell sheet music of Bach's work could do so without paying him royalties. And yet, Bach kept on composing.

ehBeth wrote:
buying instead of copying makes someone a patron

Then you should have no problem with what tsarstepan is suggesting. His suggestion makes one a patron of the cinematic arts --- just not through the process movie producers prefer.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:00 am
@DrewDad,
So failing to pay isn't theft?


Quote:
This gap between the law and what people see, feel and experience in real life is a problem


Obviously.

Ted Bundy thought murder was fun, so have a lot of other people. That doesn't mean it wasn't murder.

Quote:
violate the rights of the masses


Oh really? How exactly are your rights violated by another's copyright?

Quote:
One of the obvious problems is that it suggests that every “stolen copy” is a lost sale.


If people want it it has value. If it has value then it is theft.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:03 am
@Thomas,
So let's pretend I counterfeit only enough money to buy a movie ticket, or I counterfeit concert tickets that I only use for my own admission to whatever event.

The venue isn't losing anything by my counterfeiting?

The balance in their bank account is NOT the same. It is less than the price of my admission to the event.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:03 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
If people want it it has value. If it has value then it is theft.

By this standard, breathing would be theft: you want air, it has value to you, and yet you're not paying for it. This can't be the right standard.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:05 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
copying makes you a thief of the artist's work

No, it does not.

It's copyright infringement, but it is not theft.

Please go read the articles I posted above that discuss that issue.

boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:06 am
@Thomas,
The desire and motivation to create something isn't driven by copyright but the copyright is necessary to the artists survival as a creator.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:08 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
So let's pretend I counterfeit only enough money to buy a movie ticket, or I counterfeit concert tickets that I only use for my own admission to whatever event.

The venue isn't losing anything by my counterfeiting?

That depends on whether it's sold out or not. If you end up in a seat that would otherwise stay empty, then no, the venue hasn't lost anything. If you end up replacing a customer that would have paid real money, your fraud has deprived the venue of one ticket's worth of real money.

boomerang wrote:
The balance in their bank account is NOT the same. It is less than the price of my admission to the event.

And this is where your analogy breaks down. There is a limit to the number of seats in a movie theater. There is no limit to the number of copies of a movie. This virtual "theater" never sells out.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:10 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
By this standard, breathing would be theft: you want air, it has value to you, and yet you're not paying for it. This can't be the right standard.


There is a difference between want and need.

Nobody NEEDS to watch a certain TV show or movie or hear a piece of music right this very minute.

And some people DO pay for air. Some carry it around with them and some buy houses in the country to escape pollution.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:10 am
@ehBeth,
Something that is often left out of copyright discussions is that the purpose of copyright is to benefit the public.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:11 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
The desire and motivation to create something isn't driven by copyright but the copyright is necessary to the artists survival as a creator.

Thanks for clarifying your position. Still, artists survived and created art before there was copyright. How is this possible if, as you say, copyright is necessary for the survival of creative artists?
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:13 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

The desire and motivation to create something isn't driven by copyright but the copyright is necessary to the artists survival as a creator.

That is demonstrably false. There are artists who survive very well without copyright protections (clothing designers, for example).
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:14 am
@Thomas,
Because copying something wasn't an easy task.

It was much more cost effective to pay for the performance or recording than it was to make your own copy.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:15 am
@DrewDad,
Let's talk to those designers about how they have been effected by forgery.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:17 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
So let's pretend I counterfeit only enough money to buy a movie ticket, or I counterfeit concert tickets that I only use for my own admission to whatever event.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The opportunity to attend a live performance is something that is scarce.

A digital copy of a song is something that is not scarce. This is a fundamental change in our society.

Some artists are adapting, by seeing that the music itself is not scarce, but that things like T-shirts, autographs, live events, etc. are scarce.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:18 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
Something that is often left out of copyright discussions is that the purpose of copyright is to benefit the public.

That's a very important point. Let's recall the US Constitution's copyright clause:

In Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the US constitution, America's Founding Fathers wrote:
[Congress shall have the Power. . .] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

Observe: Under the the Constitution, intellectual property is not an absolute right of individuals, the way traditional forms of property were. It is a utilitarian construct, enacted for the practical promotion of technical progress, against the natural liberty of individuals to do whatever they want --- including copy. Intellectual property is different from regular property. That's why copying is different from stealing.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:19 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Let's talk to those designers about how they have been effected by forgery.

Nevertheless, they are still able to be successful without copyright protections on their designs.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:23 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Quote:
By this standard, breathing would be theft: you want air, it has value to you, and yet you're not paying for it. This can't be the right standard.

There is a difference between want and need.

That's hair-splitting. You only need air because you want to live. Some people don't want to live; they're not going to need air much longer.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:25 am
@Thomas,
Here's an excellent article on how copyright law has swung too far in favor of the entertainment industry:

The Economist: Copyright and wrong

Why the rules on copyright need to return to their roots


Quote:
WHEN Parliament decided, in 1709, to create a law that would protect books from piracy, the London-based publishers and booksellers who had been pushing for such protection were overjoyed. When Queen Anne gave her assent on April 10th the following year—300 years ago this week—to “An act for the encouragement of learning” they were less enthused. Parliament had given them rights, but it had set a time limit on them: 21 years for books already in print and 14 years for new ones, with an additional 14 years if the author was still alive when the first term ran out. After that, the material would enter the public domain so that anyone could reproduce it. The lawmakers intended thus to balance the incentive to create with the interest that society has in free access to knowledge and art. The Statute of Anne thus helped nurture and channel the spate of inventiveness that Enlightenment society and its successors have since enjoyed.

Over the past 50 years, however, that balance has shifted. Largely thanks to the entertainment industry’s lawyers and lobbyists, copyright’s scope and duration have vastly increased. In America, copyright holders get 95 years’ protection as a result of an extension granted in 1998, derided by critics as the “Mickey Mouse Protection Act”. They are now calling for even greater protection, and there have been efforts to introduce similar terms in Europe. Such arguments should be resisted: it is time to tip the balance back.

...

The notion that lengthening copyright increases creativity is questionable, however. Authors and artists do not generally consult the statute books before deciding whether or not to pick up pen or paintbrush. And overlong copyrights often limit, rather than encourage, a work’s dissemination, impact and influence.

...

The question is how such a deal can be made equitably. At the moment, the terms of trade favour publishers too much. A return to the 28-year copyrights of the Statute of Anne would be in many ways arbitrary, but not unreasonable. If there is a case for longer terms, they should be on a renewal basis, so that content is not locked up automatically. The value society places on creativity means that fair use needs to be expanded and inadvertent infringement should be minimally penalised. None of this should get in the way of the enforcement of copyright, which remains a vital tool in the encouragement of learning. But tools are not ends in themselves.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:27 am
@DrewDad,


Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:27 am
Oh please, that's silly even by your low standards, Thomas. People breathe whether or not they are conscious, and do so even after sufering severe head injuries. I suggest you do a little reading about the autonomic nervous system.
 

 
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