Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 05:28 pm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 1,513 • Replies: 15

 
djjd62
 
  3  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 05:30 pm
@Yahoojack,
welcome back bruno, why the name change?
0 Replies
 
Greatknight
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2012 02:44 pm
@Yahoojack,
Quote:
What is Taqiyya?
The Anti-Muslim demagogues love to talk about this weird, so called, rule that permits Muslims to lie to spread Islam. I had never even heard of it until I was accused of it by someone in a discussion once. The basic idea, according to them, is that if any Muslim ever denies being a blood thirsty lunatic engaged in perpetual war against the West, they must be lying. Muslims are simply presumed guilty, and if we profess innocence that is only further evidence of our guilt.


It should be fairly clear to any rational being that lying to spread a religion is nonsensical. If I lie to you about what Islam is and you convert I haven't spread Islam because what you have accepted was a lie.

These constant stream of Islamophobes carping on about how Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims whilst appealing to something called “taqiyyah” (also spelled, “takiya” and “taqiyya”) also end up convincing the average joe non muslim about this myth

Rather than relying on shoddy hate sites/Christian missionaries to educate us about taqiyyah we shall rely on SCHOLARLY authority – largely in the form of R. Strothmann’s relevant section in “Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam” (by H.A.R. Gibb and J.H. Kramers) and Cyril Glasse’s Concise Encyclopedia of Islam

What is “Taqiyyah”, “Takiya”, “Taqiyya”?

This term is spelt variously; “taqiyyah”, “takiya” or “taqiyya”.

“Takiya (A.), caution, fear (see glossarium to Tabari S.V. T-K-A) pr kitman, “disguise” is the technical term for dispensation from the requirements of religion under compulsion or threat of injury.” [1]

“Taqiyyah (From the root word waqa “to safeguard”; “self-protection” and hence “dissimulation [in order to protect oneself]”).” [2]

So, taqiyyah (takiya, taqiyya) is concerning dissimulation due to force – i.e. when an individual is forced to conceal.

Sadly, Islamophobes – in order to obtain an unchecked platform and/or demonise Muslims – have misapplied this term in their exaggerated claims of “Muslims are allowed to lie to the unbelievers”.

At what level of force is Takiya (Taqiyyah, Taqiya) justified?


“But an individual is not justified in takiya nor bound to hidjra [emigration] if the compulsion remains within the endurable limits, as in the case of temporary imprisonment or flogging which does not result in death” [1]

So, this make a mockery of the Islamophobes’ general suggestions of “Muslims are allowed to lie to the unbelievers” as even under threat of imprisonment and flogging Muslims are not justified in takiya. The level of force which justifies oneself in takiya is that of an unbearable level.

Takiya (taqiyya, taqiyyah) and the type of lies…

One may ask, what type of “disguise” is allowed under takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya)?

Let’s be clear about takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.” [2]

So takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya) is not used to convert folk to Islam nor is it used in Islamic text books or anything of such a nature. It is simply a form of concealment used to avoid persecution!

For further clarity, we are not talking about general, everyday fibs here, thus the ethical question of dishonesty is bypassed:

“The ethical question whether such forced lies are nevertheless lies, such a forced denial of the faith nevertheless a denial, is not put at all by one “who conceal himself” as he is not in a state of confidence which would be broken by lies or denial.” [1]

Sadly, our Islamophobic counterparts attempt to convince the gullible that takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya) allows Muslims to lie (or conceal) about aspects of their faith (Islam) as well as lie in general.

Famous case of Taqiyyah (Taqiyya, Takiya)


A common example of takiya (taqiyyah, taqiya) involves a Muslim (Ammar B. Yasir, a companion of the Prophet Muhammad, p) being forced to worship idols and insult the Prophet of Islam. [1] [3]

The level of force the polytheists applied on Ammar bin Yasir can be imagined by Amr bin Maymoon’s statement, “The polytheists tortured Ammar with fire”. [3]

“Abu Ubaydah bin Muhammad bin Ammar bin Yasir said: The polytheists seized Ammar and they did not let him off until he was forced to insult the Messenger of Allah and say good things about their deities” [3]

Ammar bin Yasir told Prophet Muhammad (p) of what he was forced to say.

“The Prophet (p) said: “Say it again if they ask (i.e. force) you to do so”.” [3]

So, in order to avoid such torture the Prophet allowed Ammar bin Yasir to use “taqiyya”

If Jesus (pbuh) had done the same, our Christian friends would have lauded it as an act of piety and mercy. Instead we see Islamophobes exaggerating this form of concealment in order to demonise Muslims. It’s a crazy old world!

Taqiyyah and the Shi’ites (Shia)

"It is, however, associated most closely with the Shi’ites who practiced taqiyyah systematically and widely during periods of Sunni domination to hide their beliefs from Sunni Muslims. "[2]

Obviously, if these Shi’ites felt they would have been persecuted for publicly announcing their shia beliefs, one can understand why they concealed (used taqiyya) their beliefs.

Is taqiyyah allowed in the Quran?


Our Islamophobic friends jump up and down in joy whilst proclaiming taqiyyah (taqiyya, takiya) is allowed in the Quran. Let’s analyse (via scholarship) the two Verses they cite.

Quran 16:106 and taqiyyah (taqiyya, takiya)?


Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom. [Pikthal translation of the Quran 16:106]

The reason for this verse is unanimously said to have been the case of Ammar b. Yasir, whose conscience was set at rest by this revelation when he was worried about his forced worshipping of idols and objurgation of the Prophet. [1]

The story of Ammar bin Yassir is relayed earlier (see above).

Tabari says on Sura 16:106 (Tafsir, Bulak 1323 sqq.24.122): If any one is compelled and professes unbelief with his tongue, while his heart contradicts him, to escape his enemies, no blame falls him on him, because God takes his servants as their hearts believe” [1]

The Quran’s (16:106) allowance of uttering disbelief whilst under extreme force is hardly justification for the outrageous smears the Islamophobes propagate.

Quran 3:28 and taqiyyah (taqiyya, takiya)?


Let not the believers take disbelievers for their guardians in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying. [Pikthal translation of the Quran 3:28]

This Verse instructs Muslims to not take the unbelievers as patrons over the believers but does allow for this in the case of fear. Tuqatan is used here (a verbal noun of taqiyyah). Tafsir Jalalayn explains:
“unless you protect yourselves against them, as a safeguard (tuqātan, ‘as a safeguard’, is the verbal noun from taqiyyatan), that is to say, [unless] you fear something, in which case you may show patronage to them through words, but not in your hearts” [Tafsir Jalalayn – 3:28]

It is hardly something Islamophobes can latch onto as evidence for their demonization of Muslims as this Verse allows concealment (taqiyyah, taqiyya, takiya) in the case of fear (i.e. to avoid persecution). We are essentially back to where we started as initially stated on taqiyyah:

Takiya (A.), caution, fear (see glossarium to Tabari S.V. T-K-A) pr kitman, “disguise” is the technical term for dispensation from the requirements of religion under compulsion or threat of injury. [1]

Taqiyyah (From the root word waqa “to safeguard”; “self-protection” and hence “dissimulation [in order to protect oneself]”). [2]

Lying about the Prophet Muhammad (p)

Islamophobes, in an attempt to obtain an unchecked platform, do suggest Muslims misinform (“use taqiyya”) about the Prophet Muhammad (p). This is an utter absurdity as it is a grave sin for a Muslim to misinform about the Prophet Muhammad as the Prophet stated:

“Whoever lies about me intentionally shall take a place for himself in hell” (al-Adhkar (y102), 510-12) [4]

In fact, presenting misinformation about the Prophet (p) was considered an extreme offense amongst early Muslim communities:

Habib ibn ar-Rabi’ said that it is disbelief to alter his [Prophet Muhammad’s] description and its details. The one who does that openly is an unbeliever. He is asked to repent. [5]

So much for the Islamophobes claims of “Muslims using taqiyyah” regarding Prophet Muhammad (p).

Conclusion


Taqiyyah (taqiya, takiya) is not something to be writing home about. To use this practice to brandish Muslims as untrustworthy (or to demonise them) is unscholarly and unjust.

If you do encounter an anti-Muslim bigot on the internet crying “taqiyya” (there are plenty about), please do send him/her to this group to be educated


References




[1] Article by R. Strothmann, Shorter Encyclopaedia of Islam, H.A.R. Gibb and J.H. Kramers, Fourth impression, 1995, E.J. Brill Leiden. New York. Koln p. 561 - 562
[2] The Concise Encyclopaedia of Islam, Revised Edition, Cyril Glasse, Stacey International, 2001, p450-451.

[3] Men and Women around the Messenger, Sa’d Yusuf Abu ‘Aziz, Translated by Suleman Fulani, Darussalam, 2009, p. 286-287

[4] Reliance of the Traveller, Translated by Nuh Hamim Keller – Amana Publications, 2008, r8.0, p 747

[5] Muhammad, Messenger of Allah – Ash Shifa of Qadi Iyad, translated by Aisha Abdarrahman Bewley, Madinah Press, 2004, p. 387

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/the_taqiyya_libel_against_muslims/
Yahoojack
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2012 06:46 pm
@Greatknight,
Here is another ex-muslim with his version:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/islamic-jihad-articles/islamic-principle-of-taqiyyah-or-holy-deception/
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Mar, 2012 11:59 pm
@Yahoojack,
I'm curious the purpose for posting thing?

By the way - about 7 years back, there are a series of pack rapes by muslim men on white australian women. During this time, one of the most senior Imams in Australia compared the Australian women to 'naked meat around a cat...of course the cat is going to eat the meat - you can't blame the cat for that'. In the interviews that followed, I watched one their Imams lie on TV about Islam (and knew enough of the religion to know it to be a lie). Funnily enough, the same reporter who interviewed the Imam - about 4 weeks later, he was interviewing a 15 year old from the Imams congregation, and the kid contradicted the Imam, and the reporter brought up what the Imam said...the kid laughed at the reporter and said 'he was lying to you'.

My take is that if it's alright to convert by any means possible until you are once again strong enough to convert by force (convert or die), then it would go without saying that it would be quite alright to lie for that purpose.
Yahoojack
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 02:03 am
@vikorr,
I hate lies and liars. IT IS NEVER JUSTIFIED>
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 07:05 pm
@Yahoojack,
Well, aside from the actual examples above , would you :

- lie, if your lie would save a nuclear bomb being launched on your hometown
- lie to save a friend unecessary/pointless hurt
- lie to keep a confidence that your friend entrusted you with
- lie to keep a state secret
- lie to keep your private information private

Quote:
I hate lies and liars.

You hate yourself huh?

I've never met a person who hasn't at some stage said 'You make me..." (which is a lie...deceiving both yourself, and publicly stating your behaviour or emotions is under someone elses control). The variations o self deception (ie lies to oneself) exist in an incredible variety in most people.

I've never met a person who hasn't lied to others, and who hasn't lied to themselves multiple times over.

So why the absolute? It doesn't leave anyone to like.
Yahoojack
 
  0  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 02:12 pm
@vikorr,
lie, if your lie would save a nuclear bomb being launched on your hometown

Impossible situation
- lie to save a friend unecessary/pointless hurt

No
- lie to keep a confidence that your friend entrusted you with

No
- lie to keep a state secret

No
- lie to keep your private information private

No

You can simply refuse to answer any question.
Saying "You make me sick" is an idiom, not taken literally by anyone who knows the English language.The problem is your ignorance.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 10:59 pm
@Yahoojack,
Quote:
You can simply refuse to answer any question....The problem is your ignorance.
I disagree - people who try to keep to the truth when faced with direct questions requiring yes/no answers often give secrets away by default. I've seen this in action many, many times.

For that reason, I'd never share a confidence with you as a friend.

I'd also be unlikely to want you as an employee - it's very likely you'd upset customers (unless you were quite smooth, which few honest people are - smoothness usually requires a degree of practiced deceit), and make working conditions difficult.

And I'd certainly never employ you in any place that has to keep secrets.

Quote:
Impossible situation
- lie to save a friend unecessary/pointless hurt
I disagree.

So, are you as honest with yourself as you allege you are with others?
Yahoojack
 
  0  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 11:07 pm
@vikorr,
People I worked for used to fire liars.


"And I'd certainly never employ you in any place that has to keep secrets."

LOL! The US Navy gave me a Top Secret clearance for 4 years.
If asked for confidential info, we were taught to merely say:It's confidential.

You are full of BS.
Yahoojack
 
  0  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2012 11:24 pm
@vikorr,
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Number 9 of the commandments
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2012 02:24 am
@Yahoojack,
Quote:
You are full of BS.
If you say so.

As for keeping Navy Seal secrets, and being taught to say 'that is confidential' - that is completely normal. When I was talking about state secrets, I was referring to a very different state secret level than low level and Navy Seal types of secrets. Please don't protest that you are high up, because it's obvious by your writing and thoughts that you aren't.

Quote:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Number 9 of the commandments

Did someone say something about making up lies about someone else so that you got them in trouble? That is completely different from lying to keep a secret. Why did you bring it up?
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2012 02:43 am
@Yahoojack,
Quote:
People I worked for used to fire liars.

The people I work for fire 'liars' too...specifically liars who lie to the organisation about the job or things related to the job, and in some other circumstances too.

But that is expected from all employers in specific circumstances that you not lie, and expected that you do lie in other circumstances (the boss says 'tell them I'm not in' for example)

So I'm curious - is it okay to be a liar to yourself, but not to others?
0 Replies
 
Yahoojack
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Mar, 2012 09:35 pm
@vikorr,
I never said anything about "Navy Seals" and I'm not in the Navy anymore.
The point is you don't have to lie to keep secrets.Your problem is you can't read English.

Also, none of my bosses ever asked me to lie for them. Where the hell do you get this stupid stuff??????????????
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2012 12:46 pm
@Yahoojack,
Oh dear god - Navy then, rather than navy seals - the same sentiment still applies.

And 'tell them I'm not in' is the most commonly requested lie in business. I've seen it asked in every job I've ever been in, frequently, by so many people, over 20 years. You've either never worked in an office, closed your ears and gone 'la, la, la, la'...or you've never been employed - one of them.

Do you notice that desipte you quoting christian lines that there is just one person here who :

- claims to hate
- shows numerous examples of intolerance
- doesn't comprehend the level of lies he tells himself and the hypocrisy inherently involved in lying to yourself while claiming to hate liars
- would not lie regardless of the consequences / would not lie to save someone needless hurt
- sees absolutes, unable to imagine a place where lying would be appropriate

Hypocrisy, hate, intolerance aren't christian values. Extremism/absolutism doesn't help.

Your views lead to a lack of empathy, as - if you don't try understanding why people lie, and the care for their fellow human that is often involved in the 'good lies'...then you will never understand. And you show you don't understand by claiming to hate liars.

Lack of empathy is also against christian values. You can be firm while showing empathy, but you can't be condescending and superior while showing empathy. Empathy is necessary to showing love for others.

Do you notice that you have avoided any answer to questions about Lying to yourself?

Despite your condescension, I make it a point of being honest with mysellf, and hunting down self deceptions, uncovering fears (which can lead to self deception), knowing who I am, my likes & dislikes, my strengths and weaknesses...because I made a promise to myself to be as honest with myself as I could be.

The point of raising this is, that I've little doubt you've made a lot of judgements about people that are just plain wrong (there's christian quotes about doing that too)...despite my defense of certain types of lies, I personally find very little need to do so these days, because there are other ways around such (that don't translate well for writing) and from a personal level - because I know myself well enough that very few things discomfort me to any great extent me these days (some still do of course).

You've made a point of hating liars - but if I sat down with you and went through a series of questions with you...I've little doubt that you'd find any number of things you've lied to yourself about (because every person I've ever met has engaged in numerous ongoing self deceptions, and instant ones, and habitual ones). Fears are an interesting point in case...anything that you avoid because of discomfort, fear, embarassment - that you give a different excuse for...is a lie.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Mar, 2012 01:00 pm
@vikorr,
By the way - I'm also curious if you see a difference between deception & lying?

As a person viewpoint - I see deception as worse than lying.
0 Replies
 
 

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