11
   

The government shouldn't regulate ineffective drugs

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:14 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
A sick person is not an effective worker; therefore, there is a large net positive when we (as a society) have some sort of assurance that the treatments for various ailments are actually doing what they are supposed to do...

My body, my choice. I think we agree that social-efficiency arguments don't give you a vote in your wife's decision whether to terminate a pregnancy. Why should they give you a vote in Steve Jobs treating his cancer with herbal medicines if he wants to?


To the best of my knowledge, there was no law against Jobs doing exactly that, and nobody is proposing a law to make it illegal to do so. Instead, the FDA acts more as a 'truth in advertising' capacity; the same way that a TV that touts itself as '3D!' should actually show something in 3D, a drug that claims to help depression should actually work, and a blood pressure medication should actually be shown to lower blood pressure, if they wish to market it that way.

Cycloptichorn
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:16 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
My body, my choice. (...) Why should they give you a vote in Steve Jobs treating his cancer with herbal medicines if he wants to?


Interesting Thomas - I think you may have found a way to legalize euthenasia - Why can't I treat my motor neurone disease with sodium thiopental, pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, there was no law against Jobs doing exactly that, and nobody is proposing a law to make it illegal to do so.

That's not the reason I chose the example. I chose the example because herbal "medicine" is ineffective. It kills people in much the same sense as snake oil does. So why approve of the FDA criminalizing snake oil if you also approve of it leaving alone acupuncturists, chiropractors, homeopaths, and herbal-remedy peddlers?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:22 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
Interesting Thomas - I think you may have found a way to legalize euthenasia - Why can't I treat my motor neurone disease with sodium thiopental, pancuronium bromide and potassium chloride?

You have my blessing if you do. And I approve of recent euthanasia laws to similar effect in the states of Washington and Oregon.

I haven't found this way to legalize euthanazia, Jack Kevorkian found it long before me. For that, he has my undying admiration.
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:27 pm
@Thomas,
Thank you Thomas

It's not a long stretch to assisted suicide is it? I've got a headache - I want to treat it with sleeping pills, 50 should do.

I was wondering how the 'no regulation' libertarians would feel about the sanctity of life issues - but I guess they're actually a bunch of overlapping sets rather than a contiguous whole.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:29 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, there was no law against Jobs doing exactly that, and nobody is proposing a law to make it illegal to do so.

That's not the reason I chose the example. I chose the example because herbal "medicine" is ineffective. It kills people in much the same sense as snake oil does. So why approve of the FDA criminalizing snake oil if you also approve of it leaving alone acupuncturists, chiropractors, homeopaths, and herbal-remedy peddlers?


I think you will find that 'herbal medicine' typically does not advertise that using that medicine will actually SOLVE the problem - certainly very little PAID advertising goes on, and that which does, has to include a disclaimer stating that there's no actual PROOF that this works.

Right now, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from solving your knee aches by hitting yourself in the hand with a hammer. Likewise, you can take some random herbs if you like, to work on whatever problem you like. Nobody has a problem with this. The only problem that they have is allowing companies to lie in their advertising.

Cycloptichorn
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:34 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think you will find that 'herbal medicine' typically does not advertise that using that medicine will actually SOLVE the problem -

I'm sorry to sound patronizing, but you obviously have no experience in talking to those people.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
The only problem that they have is allowing companies to lie in their advertising.

Not true. The FDA doesn't stop at regulating advertizing, it takes drugs off the market. If it left the drug on the market and only regulated the advertizing, I would have no problem.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:41 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think you will find that 'herbal medicine' typically does not advertise that using that medicine will actually SOLVE the problem -

I'm sorry to sound patronizing, but you obviously have no experience in talking to those people.


You're seeing paid advertising that claims these herbal cures are curing the ailments in question?

Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The only problem that they have is allowing companies to lie in their advertising.

Not true. The FDA doesn't stop at regulating advertizing, it takes drugs off the market. If it left the drug on the market and only regulated the advertizing, I would have no problem.


The FDA only takes drugs 'off the market' that are either actively harmful to the people who take them, or that are marketed for a single purpose but don't actually DO that purpose. I don't understand how you could object to either of those things.

The truth is that many drugs have very negative side-effects, and if the help they provide doesn't outweigh the risk the side-effects pose, people shouldn't be taking them. And individuals are simply not qualified to make that judgment on their own, whether you find that idea condescending or not. You aren't, and I'm not.

The idea that we should have a marketplace in which companies are allowed to lie and mislead customers to their heart's content isn't one that I can support.

Cycloptichorn
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:43 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:
It's not a long stretch to assisted suicide is it? I've got a headache - I want to treat it with sleeping pills, 50 should do.

I advise that you measure twice, cut once in matters like this. But if you're truly sure this is the cut you want to make, I don't think I have the right to stop you. And neither do my elected representatives, nor the agencies enforcing their laws.

hingehead wrote:
]I was wondering how the 'no regulation' libertarians would feel about the sanctity of life issues - but I guess they're actually a bunch of overlapping sets rather than a contiguous whole.

While I wouldn't call myself a no-regulation libertarian---I approve of environmental regulations, as I said earlier---the sanctity-of-life concept means nothing to me except the sanctity of the person who lives that life. If the person doesn't want to live it anymore, it's his or hers to discard, not mine to protect.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
You're seeing paid advertising that claims these herbal cures are curing the ailments in question?

No, but there are plenty of quacks advertizing them that way to their patients, and the cures remain on the market for the quacks' patients to buy. That's the regime I want for drugs like Vioxx, or cocaine for toothache, or Heroin against cough.
Questioner
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:48 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You're seeing paid advertising that claims these herbal cures are curing the ailments in question?

No, but there are plenty of quacks advertizing them that way to their patients, and they're on the market for those patients to buy. That's the way I want it for drugs like Vioxx, or cocaine for toothache, or Heroin against cough.


Meth PM - Children's formula.

Can't agree with it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:50 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You're seeing paid advertising that claims these herbal cures are curing the ailments in question?

No, but there are plenty of quacks advertizing them that way to their patients, and they're on the market for those patients to buy. That's the way I want it for drugs like Vioxx, or cocaine for toothache, or Heroin against cough.


I believe that you will find that these 'quacks' subject themselves to legal liability for misleading their patients in that fashion.

While your argument sounds nice - from a Libertarian perspective - I don't believe you've painted an accurate picture of all the negative side-effects that would come from such a setup. Let us take my Grandma as an example. She is quite old and has many different drugs that she takes simply to maintain normal function. Is she to be solely responsible for judging the safety and efficacy of those drugs? What metrics would she use to measure them? If one of those drugs was damaging her liver, how would she know, before it was too late? She's on Medicare, so if she is hospitalized for the damage she did to her body, both you and I will pay the burdens of it.

How is this a net positive for society in any fashion?

Cycloptichorn
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:51 pm
@Questioner,
Questioner wrote:
Meth PM - Children's formula.

All I'm saying here applies to choices by mentally-competent grown-ups. If you want to talk child protection, that's a different case.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 05:53 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Questioner wrote:
Meth PM - Children's formula.

All I'm saying here applies to choices by mentally-competent grown-ups. If you want to talk child protection, that's a different case.


Sorry, but you simply are not competent to judge the efficacy of drugs, or their safety. Almost no individual is, and certainly not those who lack any medical training whatsoever. It isn't a question of 'freedom to choose.'

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 06:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I believe that you will find that these 'quacks' subject themselves to legal liability for misleading their patients in that fashion.

Once again, I don't think you have done a lot of research on these practitioners, and on the environment in which they operate. May I recommend that you visit your library and check out Simon Singh: Trick or Treatment: The Undeniable Facts about Alternative Medicine. W. W. Norton (2008)?

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Is she [grandma, T.] to be solely responsible for judging the safety and efficacy of those drugs?

Yes, if she's mentally competent and there's no issue like dementia. If there is a mental-competence problem, her caretakers (probably children) are solely responsible.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
What metrics would she use to measure them?

Whatever metric she chooses. If the FDA is doing a competent job---and in my judgment, it generally does---she should follow the FDA's advice. I have nothing against following the FDA's advice, only against having to follow it.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
If one of those drugs was damaging her liver, how would she know, before it was too late? She's on Medicare, so if she is hospitalized for the damage she did to her body, both you and I will pay the burdens of it.

This argument cuts both ways. It also applies if the FDA fails to permit a drug that would have helped her.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 06:05 pm
@Thomas,
In response, I'm going to have to repeat my assertion that individuals are not competent to make judgements regarding the efficacy of drugs on their own; and that there is no net positive to society to force them to do so.

The truth is that my Grandma can't use 'any metrics she likes' to tell if her drugs are working. She doesn't have the ability to do so, even if she wanted to; no individual does.

Cycloptichorn
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 06:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The truth is that my Grandma can't use 'any metrics she likes' to tell if her drugs are working. She doesn't have the ability to do so, even if she wanted to;

In that case, she should defer to the expertise of people she trusts on the matter. That would probably be her doctor. And if the doctor gets his facts from the FDA, fine. As I said, I approve of the FDA for its information-providing services.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
no individual does.

I know of at least one individual who does. An uncle of mine has an obscure auto-immune disease that would kill him within weeks without proper medication. He is allergic to the standard medication; the allergy would kill him just as quickly. There is a nonstandard medication, licensed for standard autoimmune illnesses, that works perfectly for him. But because his illness is so obscure, the producer has decided against licensing the product for that illness. Licenses from the Bundesgesundheitsamt, the German FDA, require extensive clinical trials. The market for my uncle's illness was too small to justify the cost.

How did my uncle survive? By finding a doctor who writes fraudulent prescriptions for him so he can buy his medication. There is no legal way for him to get access. If the Bundesgesundheitsamt got wind of the true purpose of the prescription, the doctor would lose his license to practice medicine, and my uncle would lose his life.

Is my uncle's case typical? There's no way of telling. He keeps his mouth shut, as would everyone in his situation, so how could we possibly find out if there's others like him? But since your claim was that no individual can tell if a drug is working, it only takes one counterexample to rebut it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 06:28 pm
@Thomas,
Your uncle has no clue what the long-term side-effects are for using that drug off-label; and his doctor likely doesn't either. He is taking a risky gamble. While that may work for some, for the vast majority it will not. I cannot recommend what you advocate as a policy our society should pursue.

Cycloptichorn
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 06:36 pm
@Thomas,
That's a pretty interesting story Thomas - clearly the regulatory framework fails in this case, but that's not a reason for dumping it, just tweaking it.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Jan, 2012 06:38 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Your uncle has no clue what the long-term side-effects are for using that drug off-label;

1) My uncle knows that the side-effects of not taking it, or of taking the on-label medicine, is to kill him.

2) My uncle judged, as it turned out correctly, that the off-label medication would give him the chance that there even be a long run. Nothing would have been lost if it hadn't.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
and his doctor likely doesn't either. He is taking a risky gamble.

And he won! He made the gamble 20 years ago, and he's fine. Are you telling me he should have died for your political principles?

My uncle is a biochemist---most people in my family are, I'm the only black sheep as the sole biophysicist. He's as capable as the Bundesgesundheitsamt, and much more motivated than it, to judge the matter correctly. The product worked through a known biochemical pathway that would work on his obscure disease in the same way as for the more common diseases in this class (for which it was licensed.) The producer had simply not found it profitable to apply for the license.

As an aside, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to make confident judgments about the competence of people you know nothing about.
 

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