13
   

What is the essential role of government.

 
 
dadpad
 
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:06 pm
I detest party politics and the one eyed my party is better than your party attitude so please try not o bring it here.

What is the essential, perhaps philosophical role of government:

I believe at this time that the role of a government is equitable redistribution of wealth.

By wealth I mean the provision of infrastructure and services where this cannot be provided by direct subscription from a local populous.

Equitable redistribution in my opinion does not mean providing a multi million dollar specialist hospital to service a rural population of 50 people.
It may however mean providing preschool services supported by tax dollars generated in a city far away.

I'm interested in other peoples views on the essential role of government.

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Type: Question • Score: 13 • Views: 5,938 • Replies: 63
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Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:30 pm
@dadpad,
dadpad wrote:

I detest party politics and the one eyed my party is better than your party attitude so please try not o bring it here.

What is the essential, perhaps philosophical role of government:

I believe at this time that the role of a government is equitable redistribution of wealth.

By wealth I mean the provision of infrastructure and services where this cannot be provided by direct subscription from a local populous.

Equitable redistribution in my opinion does not mean providing a multi million dollar specialist hospital to service a rural population of 50 people.
It may however mean providing preschool services supported by tax dollars generated in a city far away.

I'm interested in other peoples views on the essential role of government.


To do good, in general; but the preamble is just about the best statement of the proper role of government... We consider we have rights and that the purpose of government is the defense of those rights... That never happens...
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 06:53 pm
what is this preamble of which you speak?
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 07:08 pm
@dadpad,
Preamble to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, 1776


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 08:04 pm
@dadpad,
Big picture wise I think the role of government is to overcome the zero sum equation by 'taxing' the pursuit of individual short term goals to fund broader common good goals.

And I mean 'taxing' in the broadest possible sense, not merely financially.

Of course who and what defines a common good goal, determines the form of taxation, and balancing the two is called 'politics'.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 10:38 pm
@dadpad,
dadpad wrote:

what is this preamble of which you speak?
The Preamble of the Constitution of the United States of America...

Aristotle says almost at the beginning of Politics, that good is the goal of government, because that is the goal of all human activity, my paraphrase...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 10:44 pm
@Pemerson,
Pemerson wrote:

Preamble to the U.S. Declaration of Independence, 1776


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.




Notice the correct use of the term: Form.. Those people had a formal consciousness, and it came out in their choice of words... They had it, and we need it because the whole of human history is the story of changing forms... It will be essential to changing our form of government, and economy... It is a crucial understanding...
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 10:57 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
And I mean 'taxing' in the broadest possible sense, not merely financially.


Please explain?
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2010 11:17 pm
@dadpad,
For example I consider rule, regulation and law a form of taxation, in that the government imposes restrictions on individual freedoms, again for the 'common good'.

Imagine if you will that you are totally self sufficient without the use of money, the government would still be able 'tax' (i.e. modify your behaviours) without resorting to fiscal mechanisms.

Evidence of this is all around in the differences between nations. It's not just culture, because nations embody many cultures.

Even at the tribal/familial level 'government' has mechanisms at its disposal to modify behaviour (like group acceptance). This predates money.
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 12:35 am
Zero-sum can be thought of more generally as constant sum where the benefits and losses to all players sum to the same value of money (or services).
roger
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 12:46 am
Noone has mentioned security as a function of government. Security, safety, and a consistant, reliable legal system have to be worth something.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 01:03 am
In the early times of tribal leaders and early monarchs, the government had a laissez faire policy meaning that the government and the leading king were principally bestowed a role where in they undertook the duty of only defending their people and lands. However as the times progressed the duties that were to be executed by the governing parties became more and more complicated and difficult with each passing day. The Greek, Roman, Harrapan, Egyptian and Babylonian civilizations had governments that had a fantastic system of governance which helped them to cope with all possible problems even in every day life.

* Military Duties: The oldest function of every ruler was to provide sufficient protection from foreign aggression to the people. The military duties have substantially increased as several new components such as external affairs, alliances, treaties and development of arms and related manpower have also come into being. The military duties of the government are extremely important due to the fact that they insure the integrity of the nation and thus help civilization, economic activity and social components within, thrive.

* Civic Amenities: The second most important role of government in society is the provision of civic amenities. Human inhabitation of a particular area or land requires some basic amenities such as sanitation, hygiene and a secure environment to live in.

* Education: The proper role of government in education is the provision of eduction. Every society needs knowledge to think and food for thought is derived from this knowledge. An essential function that is to be fulfilled by the government is providing all levels of eduction to the people, right from small kindergarten schools to universities. Education is a profound need of any human society as it makes mankind rational, intellectually enriched and thoughtful. Hence to complete all the elements of society, the one of the most important role of government in society is providing adequate education.

* Justice and Mechanism: In order to prevent haywire and chaotic functioning in the society, it is essential to have some simple mechanisms and laws. Such laws may include, small unspoken norms such as standing in a line for the bus or can be of complex nature and may include complex tax laws. This function which is also known as judicial function, basically helps the society to function smoothly. This judicial function also includes the role of government in business as in the modern era, as the growing volume of economic activity needs good mercantile laws for governance. The economic activities also need some infrastructure and support such as banks and foreign trade, which further increases the importance of the role of government in economy.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 01:24 am
@dadpad,
That's a nice simple definition, I believe society and cooperation drag us beyond zero-sum, which is why so many of us have so much more than we once had, but very few have less. Especially if you consider we started with nothing except a bunch of lower Maslow needs, opposable thumbs and oversized braincages.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 07:09 am
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

That's a nice simple definition, I believe society and cooperation drag us beyond zero-sum, which is why so many of us have so much more than we once had, but very few have less. Especially if you consider we started with nothing except a bunch of lower Maslow needs, opposable thumbs and oversized braincages.
Dadpad could use an English lesson... Since I am doing your home work, let me explain the situation... People conceive of the good in life through abstract forms, and these forms are infinite moral forms like justice, or tranquility, or welfare, or liberty, or defense, or unity... Did I leave any out??? It is out of these abstract moral forms that people build social forms, to bring the infinite forms to a finite reality... The problem lies in the fact that people cannot define what is infinite... We may judge a particular act just, for example without being able to better say what justice is as an infinite, and no number of examples except an infinite number of examples can get us closer to a definition of Justice... While we may all agree objectively that the goals or our government are good and worthy, there will always be a difference of opinion on how those goods should be achieved... People are correct to say my good is the good I wish government to achieve, but from first to last our government has always been in the power of people who accept as proved that their good is the good forseen and sought by the constitution, and since government gives them the power, their good, and the good of their friends is the good they work to achieve, and if that means spreading good far and wide, or misery, it is all about equal in their eyes...

Dadpan uses the word Haywire... Things have gone wrong at the top, but such behavior would be impossible if we were not all corrupted... Immigrants coming to this land are already corrupted by our money and the desire to escape their misery... They may be personally moral, moral within their own communities, and yet, look at all of us as so many sheep to be sheared, and others born here and citizens by heredity of long standing may feel the same... We have to achieve the goods, the virtue envisioned by the constitution together....When it becomes a foot race to good, with the first one to get there taking all, then we are all losers...I am not going to tell you the problem is all at the top... The social form is the problem, though the goals are good... But, we are the problem too, since people will not change their forms, especially when they do not know what a form is, and if they are benefitting in some fashion from the form, they will not change it though millions suffer...People have to be taught to have a wider field of vision, to see our good as their good...It is defeat which most often teaches people to be moral which victory never teaches... Those who never show mercy are the first to ask for it....

Look; we have had half baked notions like social darwinism to justify the injustice throughout our society, and racial theory as well... We have no idea how many people have been robbed of their birth right, and even their right to reproduce themselves so that whole family lines have passed away...It is possible for a society to die by halves, and still die... Rome first depopulated itself by abortion, sterilizations, and celebacy before it was over run... For my entire life time there has been a social program called social security that encouraged people to have less children by denying them both the need to and the income to do so, and now that what was sown by generations is not there to be reaped what alternative have we but to work ourselves do death with jobs we can't even buy??? Consider how often the capital of generation is drained away with a reverse mortgage, and people have nothing left to pass to the next generation??? Consider how many family farms become corporate farms when corporation alreay control our entire food supply, and how people driven from the land as free peasant farmers become hand to mouth wage laborers with nothing to show for generations of labor... The country people are inclined to look at government as the problem, but it is finance left ungoverned that is the real enemy of the people, and the government is only a whipping boy...If the goverment has to ruin the middle class with taxes to pay the rich money it has borrowed from the rich when, if the rich were not already in charge they might tax the rich, then it is not their problem, the problem of capital and government, but our problem as well...

A government can work if funded, and since the government stands behind all titles, and this land is a commonwealth, it has the right to tax the commonwealth even in private hands... If the rich have money to loan the government it has money to pay taxes which the rest of us do not... But the middle/working classes killed by taxes are too kind to wish taxes on the only people who can afford them, because they admire the rich, and wish only to trade places with them to ease their misery, and not add to their responsibility to society... They parrot the rich in their hatred of civic responsibility and taxes, so the problem can hardly be called a problem for the rich... It is our problem, and we have to withdraw our own heads from the ass of our fantasy lives... We are never going to be rich, and we need to quit taking their side against humanity...
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 07:12 am
Quote:
Dadpan uses the word Haywire...

What? I dont think so.

Quote:
Dadpad could use an English lesson... Since I am doing your home work


again... What?

Go away.
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 07:16 am
Quote:
The Greek, Roman, Harrapan, Egyptian and Babylonian civilizations had governments that had a fantastic system of governance which helped them to cope with all possible problems even in every day life.


If their systems of government were so fantastic why did these societies fail?
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 07:29 am
What is the essential role of government.

to provide jobs for politicians, which when you think about it, is a great public service, except for those annoying campaigns it keeps them busy in whatever seat of power your country has and not out bothering the general population in the towns and areas they come from

Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 08:05 am
@dadpad,
Do I have to quote your whole post??? You said: in order to prevent haywire and the chaotic functioning of society, blah, blah, blaw, nonsense... Speak English... There is no mandate for government to leave free enterprise free, or to bind it to a specific task, and yet Capitalism is pure chaos, and anarchy, and there it is conceived of as a virtue no matter what misery or vice comes out of it... Government must control people because it refuses to attack the worst aspects of a mad economy... It is guided by a certain principal that has the support of religion, but has no proof, that good will come out of the vice of greed... So in your ideal world government is supposed to clean up haywire while capitalism manufactures it as a byproduct and spits it out in great gobs everywhere... Let me explain one simple fact to you... Magic has nothing to do with anything... There is no invisible hand at work, and no pixies toiling while people sleep... The people through their labor carry government and rich, and if to maximize profits people are replaced with machines or robots they are thrown out on the street where they still need the support of government.... It does not matter how much of the wealth and commonwealth get into the hands of the rich... The area of a country must still support the population whether or not they are allowed a part in the process... Slaves drove the farmers from their fields in Roman Italy, as later, sheep performed the same function in England and Ireland... Clearly, when people are allowed to starve to death, or are allowed so little that generations cannot reproduce themselves the problem is solved for the rich... In Rome, the citizens still had to be fed, and in America too, and whether with jobs or without they will live off the common wealth as they must, whether it be in private hands or public.... The economy of the society is supposed to support the population... The government has given great support to the capitalist society, even support from educational intitutions since no one can take a government class without learning how great is capitalism... We have found ourselves for many generations now, with capitalism on life support, and it is the people who do work, who must support those who do not work, who also must give a greater share to keep capitalism from melting down completely, since having drained the wealth from society it must now consume itself or our lives and live on what it has piled up while we die... It is the unwritten constitution as much as the written constitution which is killing us... And haywire and chaos are only byproducts...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 08:14 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

What is the essential role of government.

to provide jobs for politicians, which when you think about it, is a great public service, except for those annoying campaigns it keeps them busy in whatever seat of power your country has and not out bothering the general population in the towns and areas they come from


The entire history of human kind is the story of changing forms... Sure, a lot of those societies could not adapt, became top heavy with priests and bureaucracy and could not defend themselves... Very few countries were blessed with any sort of natural defensive barriors like England and America possessed... New barbaric nations were always growing up in the wilds and pushing into civilized areas where the people had become soft and corrupted, and they became soft and corrupted in turn...

Whether we know it or not, the same thing is happening to us, when the child of an immigrant can get into the white house, and illegals are imported under the nose of the government to displace native workers and drive down wages and we accept it, it is because we have become demoralized and have our rights in name only...We have been invaded, and it is only a matter of time before we find we are working for those who used to work for us...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Nov, 2010 08:14 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

What is the essential role of government.

to provide jobs for politicians, which when you think about it, is a great public service, except for those annoying campaigns it keeps them busy in whatever seat of power your country has and not out bothering the general population in the towns and areas they come from



You are confusing obvious with essential...
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