Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

@Frank Apisa,

These folks are slippery Frank, they won't answer any question directly. The game here is to see how many ways you can redirect and outrage signal.

2 Replies

@glitterbag,

I believe our religious contributors are saying:

- Jesus implied (as Jesus never actually said), everyone stop being slaves to material possessions (Of course this says absolutely nothing about whether or not being legally owned <as a slave> was right or wrong)

- that most people are 'tied' to wage labour, and suggests it's akin to slavery. Of course this conveniently ignores that wage labourers frequently move homes & cities, buy things for themselves, and can tell their employer they are leaving...while slaves cannot do any of these things (let alone that slaves can get beaten, raped, etc). In this regard, I agree that using slavery in such loose terms (ie. for wage labour) is disrespectful of people who were (or are) actual slaves.

So it seems to me the response is "he made inferences against things could be incredibly loosely described as slavery...but not anything about actual slavery ". And 'this should be a good enough response'. But it in fact doesn't answer the real question (which is about legally owned slaves - people who are legally owned by other people, with all the issues such legal ownership of a person entails)

The only direct reference I know of that he made to slaves was "slaves obey your masters"

3 Replies

@vikorr,

By the way, if it was me answering the question. I would have said "He said Love your neigbhour as you would love yourself" and this is impossible to do if you support slavery"

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Why do YOU suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

Because the people writing about this supernatural man/god did not think to add that to their writings perhaps?

Did the god Zeus have a position on slavery or the god Jupiter or any of the hundreds of gods mankind had dream up?

0 Replies

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

I believe our religious contributors are saying:

As much as we usually disagree, I appreciate that you at least put effort into accurately understanding what you're debating, unlike some here.

Quote:

- Jesus implied (as Jesus never actually said), everyone stop being slaves to material possessions (Of course this says absolutely nothing about whether or not being legally owned <as a slave> was right or wrong)

In the story of the rich man that walked away after Jesus told him to give up all his possessions, the message is clear that Jesus knew people could not be perfect and so he said all sin is forgiven except blasphemy of Holy Spirit, which basically just means rejecting the whole ethic of seeking righteousness/goodness.

So the rich man sinned by not giving up all his possessions, but he was forgiven for his sins like everyone else, and then the task remains of progressing in righteousness by confessing and repenting to God.

Quote:

- that most people are 'tied' to wage labour, and suggests it's akin to slavery. Of course this conveniently ignores that wage labourers frequently move homes & cities, buy things for themselves, and can tell their employer they are leaving...while slaves cannot do any of these things (let alone that slaves can get beaten, raped, etc). In this regard, I agree that using slavery in such loose terms (ie. for wage labour) is disrespectful of people who were (or are) actual slaves.

Think about it: if Jesus would have gotten into issues of which sins are which than which other sins, that would imply that some are more forgiveable than others and/or that it only matters to confess and repent some but not others. The point is everyone is forgiven and saved who accepts it, but then you have to put 100% effort into progressing from whichever point you're at, and when you falter, you will be forgiven, but it is not easy to get to heaven, which is why He said it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven, i.e it takes more effort for a rich person to rise above worldly possessions/passions/pleasures than someone who is already miserable in the world and wishes mostly or wholly just to escape it spiritually, such as a badly-treated slave.

Quote:

So it seems to me the response is "he made inferences against things could be incredibly loosely described as slavery...but not anything about actual slavery ". And 'this should be a good enough response'. But it in fact doesn't answer the real question (which is about legally owned slaves - people who are legally owned by other people, with all the issues such legal ownership of a person entails)

The only direct reference I know of that he made to slaves was "slaves obey your masters"

Jesus didn't come to lead a rebellion. He was a revolutionary, but the revolution was a spiritual one where people would be reborn of spirit and then become slaves to righteousness, guided by Holy Spirit. The assumption is that as they progress in submission to Holy Spirit, they come to the conclusion on their own that they should minimize their material-dependency and love their neighbors as best they can, e.g. either setting slaves free if that is best for them, or just treating them kind if that is best. It's like in the Green Mile where Tom Hanks' character asks the healer character whether he wants him to let him go free and get hunted down and the guy just says go ahead and do his job. It's a sad thing, but in this world of sin there is sometimes no way out and people just have to keep trudging along in whatever situation they're in trying to make the best of it in whatever way they can. Of course if everyone does as the Christmas song says and "all ye nations rise and join the triumph of the skies" then this world would be totally redeemed and there would be no more slavery, labor obligations/contracts, debts, exploitation, abuse, waste, hate, etc. etc. but we are not there yet, so we're struggling to figure out how to survive and consult our consciences for what choices to make insofar as we have to live in an imperfect world.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

By the way, if it was me answering the question. I would have said "He said Love your neigbhour as you would love yourself" and this is impossible to do if you support slavery"

How would you want people to treat you if you were stuck as a slave with no chance of being set free?

There is also a story about this in the story of Prophet Mohamed (PBUH), where a slave says that only his body is enslaved but his mind is free.

You have to realize that no matter what worldly position someone is in, their mind and heart is caught in a struggle between the will to goodness and the temptation to evil. This is true of the richest person or the lowest peasant/slave.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Quote:

There is also a story about this in the story of Prophet Mohamed (PBUH), where a slave says that only his body is enslaved but his mind is free.

Viktor Frankl in 'Man's search for meaning' said something quite similar - along the lines of "They could take away my freedom, my health, and deprive me of everything except mankinds one remaining freedom - the freedom to choose the attitude with which I faced any given situation". That he too recognised his mind as free, in no way made what the Germans did to him right.

And even if in certain circumstances 'ownership' is lenient and beneficial to one particular slave - as a person who loves neighbours as themselves (so not limited to one specific person), there is no justification for supporting a system where there is emotional trauma caused to a great many slaves, due to their 'ownership' by someone else (as well as the bodily treatment that many would receive). This becomes even moreso the case in any system where sex isn't a choice, or beatings and killings are lawful.

These things aren't difficult to understand. I am very surprised that you would contest such.

2 Replies

@livinglava,

Quote:

So the rich man sinned by not giving up all his possessions,

Is that what you got out of it? I always got out of it that he sinned by prioritising possessions over God. This by the way, in no way was a comment on (actual) slavery. Allegorical slavery, sure.

For the rest - you aren't very clear in articulating how your explanations related to why Jesus never directly condemned slavery. You talk about the relativeness of particular sins, and allude that they are akin to slavery (and it seems, that this is beneficial)...but that is an allegorical slavery...not actual slavery.

Spiritual freedom, or slavery, or however you would like to put it isn't what was being asked. It was about physical, literal, slavery. It is wrong. We all know that. It certainly breaks the Golden Rule.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

The worst form of slavery is the kind which forces you to be your own slave master

I called BS on this already.

Note that if you really want to become a slave, I know people. I could find a taker.

0 Replies

@vikorr,

Quote:

Viktor Frankl in 'Man's search for meaning' said something quite similar - along the lines of "They could take away my freedom, my health, and deprive me of everything except mankinds one remaining freedom - the freedom to choose the attitude with which I faced any given situation".

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
-- William Ernest Henley -- Invictus

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@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
There is also a story about this in the story of Prophet Mohamed (PBUH), where a slave says that only his body is enslaved but his mind is free.

Viktor Frankl in 'Man's search for meaning' said something quite similar - along the lines of "They could take away my freedom, my health, and deprive me of everything except mankinds one remaining freedom - the freedom to choose the attitude with which I faced any given situation". That he too recognised his mind as free, in no way made what the Germans did to him right.

You're implying that Jesus validated slavery in some way. The problem in this thread is with the word, 'condemnation.' In Christianity, sins are forgiven in order to save sinners so they won't be condemned. When Jesus answers the rich man's question about what he can do in addition to following the commandments, He tells him to give up all his possessions. He doesn't condemn the man for not giving up his possessions, but the man leaves on his own, at which point Jesus says that it's harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.

Quote:

And even if in certain circumstances 'ownership' is lenient and beneficial to one particular slave - as a person who loves neighbours as themselves (so not limited to one specific person), there is no justification for supporting a system where there is emotional trauma caused to a great many slaves, due to their 'ownership' by someone else (as well as the bodily treatment that many would receive). This becomes even moreso the case in any system where sex isn't a choice, or beatings and killings are lawful.

There's no support of any system. There is forgiveness for all sin, but that is not for the purpose of supporting any system in particular.

Quote:

These things aren't difficult to understand. I am very surprised that you would contest such.

You can't imply that Jesus/Christianity supports certain sins and/or systems of the world by forgiving sinners. All sinners/sins are forgiven so that people can be saved/redeemed through Holy Spirit. So the idea is that people will change bad systems when they can because Holy Spirit will lead them to do what's right, when it is within their power. If it's not within their power to change a system, how are they going to change it?

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Quote:
So the rich man sinned by not giving up all his possessions,
Is that what you got out of it? I always got out of it that he sinned by prioritising possessions over God. This by the way, in no way was a comment on (actual) slavery. Allegorical slavery, sure.

Here's the problem: if you say that it's only a sin to prioritize possessions, when what Jesus said was for the man to give all his possessions to the poor and follow Him, then you're trying to find a way to comply so that you won't be a sinner; but Jesus's point was that even if you follow all the commandments we still sin by being of this world. That is why we need salvation, i.e. because we can't transcend sin by our own actions/choices.

Btw, when Jesus said to give up all his possessions, that would include slaves.

Quote:

For the rest - you aren't very clear in articulating how your explanations related to why Jesus never directly condemned slavery. You talk about the relativeness of particular sins, and allude that they are akin to slavery (and it seems, that this is beneficial)...but that is an allegorical slavery...not actual slavery.

Spiritual freedom, or slavery, or however you would like to put it isn't what was being asked. It was about physical, literal, slavery. It is wrong. We all know that. It certainly breaks the Golden Rule.

I think you can find verses in the Bible that treat slavery as a form of death that results from sin. In the case of Euro enslavement of Africans, we have this idea that the Africans captured were innocent victims of their captors/traffickers, but in the ancient world there was an idea that people became slaves through debt or criminality or war or some other situation where their own personal failure would have left them no choice but to beg for their lives, and then a slave master would have been saving their lives by giving them work to do in exchange for food, etc.

That is why I point out that slavery back then is more similar to wage labor today, because wage labor is your only option for survival if you have run out of other options. You cannot sell yourself into slavery now because it is illegal, so if you can't find someone to take you on as an employee, you're SOL. Some people probably find ways to sell themselves into slavery today by buying something on credit or taking out a lease that guarantees the wages they make will go to the seller or landlord of the thing they buy/rent. The point is that in order to be a slave, you have to submit to an employer regardless of any conditions, so Jesus was asking people to submit unconditionally to righteousness, in addition to whatever else they were doing in the world.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

I’m assuming you were never taken involuntarily into an army, controlled 24/7, had to work under the most hazardous conditions and forced to kill other people who you knew Literally nothing about.

This happens in every kind of country, from lawless third world, to the 'civilized' USA.

You ******* bleeding hearts have no intellectual or emotional foundation to your pathetic ethics and artificial sensitivities.

Please report this post.

Edit. Consider this addressed to all.

2 Replies

@glitterbag,

Y

glitterbag wrote:

These folks are slippery Frank, they won't answer any question directly. The game here is to see how many ways you can redirect and outrage signal.

Yup.

I will continue to call them out for it.

Perhaps at some point...they will actually answer rather than divert.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I'm trying another track: help them articulate what they want to say... E.g. maybe Lava and LF are trying to tell us something about their own desire to be treated as slaves.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I'm trying another track: help them articulate what they want to say... E.g. maybe Lava and LF are trying to tell us something about their own desire to be treated as slaves.

Why are you being rude? Are you implying that Christianity in some way condones slavery?

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Perhaps that is it!

0 Replies

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Olivier5 wrote:

I'm trying another track: help them articulate what they want to say... E.g. maybe Lava and LF are trying to tell us something about their own desire to be treated as slaves.

Why are you being rude? Are you implying that Christianity in some way condones slavery?

St. Paul did. Jesus did. The god you supposedly worship did.

It is not an implication. Christianity DOES condone slavery. Any Christian not condoning slavery is a hypocrite.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

St. Paul did. Jesus did. The god you supposedly worship did.

It is not an implication. Christianity DOES condone slavery. Any Christian not condoning slavery is a hypocrite.

Where does the Bible say slavery is condoned?

1 Reply

@livinglava,

livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

St. Paul did. Jesus did. The god you supposedly worship did.

It is not an implication. Christianity DOES condone slavery. Any Christian not condoning slavery is a hypocrite.

Where does the Bible say slavery is condoned?

The god of the Bible says:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
Leviticus 25:44ff

Leviticus is the LAW.

Here is what Jesus says about the LAW:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE."
Matthew 5: 17ff

Here is what Paul said condoning slavery:

"All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers."
1 Timothy 6:1ff

"To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord."
Colossians 3:22

"You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves..."
Colossians 4:1

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior."
Titus 2:9

"The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him...Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery...."
1 Corinthians 7:17ff

In the Epistle, Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he (Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own.

Anything else I can help you with about the Bible...just ask.

1 Reply

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

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