57
   

Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 06:38 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

There he goes again


Excellent imitation of Reagan. You caught his voice exactly.

So...at some point are you actually going to answer the question...or are you going to continue to pretend you did?

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 06:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Just as long as you pretend I didn’t.

And thank you.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 06:59 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Just as long as you pretend I didn’t.

And thank you.


One...you are boring.

Two...you never answered the OP question.

Three...after I hit REPLY...you go on IGNORE. (I may have put one other person on IGNORE before, but you may be the first during the almost two decades I've been here.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 07:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
I guess I should thank you for that too.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 07:45 am
@Leadfoot,
I had a similar exchange with Frank where I contended that he was too bloody minded to look up the definition of bloody minded.

I believe that’s still the case.
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 08:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I read everything you wrote...and I did not ask my question again to disrespect you. I asked it again in order to hear your guesses about why he did not condemn it.

If you don't post what you understand from reading something, it's impossible to assess what you understood from reading words you claim failed to address your question.

Quote:

Do...it does not answer my question even remotely.

Not in the slightest does it answer the question.

It evades the question.

NO...it does not answer the question.

You just posted four different lines of text to say 'no.' Again, if you don't explain how you read something and yet it didn't address your question, you're just not reading actively. Maybe you just have a very narrow mind or weak reading skills. If you don't explain why something addressed to your question still doesn't make sense to you, how can I work with you to make it more understandable?

Quote:
No rational person would think that your word salad in any way answers my question...and most intelligent people would say that your comments do not even come close to answering it.

I don't think you actually read and understood what I wrote. Either that or you just didn't like that I pointed out how slavery still exists to varying degrees when wages are paid for obliged labor.
Jesus told rich people to give away their wealth if they want to be perfect, but He forgave them for not being perfect. Wealth includes slaves, so that answers your question.

Quote:
I expect that some people would even say that your response does not even significantly TOUCH on my question.

If so, they are lying or they can't read properly.

I hope that answers your question.

Quote:
Now...for my question: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

Perhaps my answer to the previous poster might help you form an answer.

You don't want the actual answer to your question. I have given you all direct quotes from the Bible that address the issue of wealth and sin, Jesus' prescription for what to do with wealth if you seek perfection; PLUS I explained to you how Jesus deals with people who fail to achieve perfection, i.e. sinners.

If you can't understand any of this, you should explain why and try. If you don't, you're just playing a game of trying to ignore what the Bible actually says about the question you are asking in order to deny the answer to the question you are pretending to ask for the sake of arguing against religion.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 08:43 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I had a similar exchange with Frank where I contended that he was too bloody minded to look up the definition of bloody minded.

I believe that’s still the case.


That never happened, Izzy. I know what bloody-minded means...and I also know it requires a dash between "bloody" and "minded."

And as for what you "believe"...well, poppycock. (Wow, I don't think I have ever used that word before!)

I am totally willing to discuss any issue with you in a civil and productive way ...even Killer Sudoku's.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 08:44 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Provide an answer for a change...and see if I ignore it.

Your answer should start with: The reason Jesus did not condemn slavery (or it was not reported that Jesus condemned slavery) is because....

The reason Jesus did not condemn slavery (or it was not reported that Jesus condemned slavery) is because....

1) Jesus did not condemn sin. He forgave it. He died to give sinners life, not take their lives away with judgment/condemnation of sin.

2) He recognized that economic reforms are easier said than done; so when he told the rich man to give up all his wealth, that included slaves; but He knew the rich man couldn't/wouldn't do it, and that is when He explained that it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 08:45 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I read everything you wrote...and I did not ask my question again to disrespect you. I asked it again in order to hear your guesses about why he did not condemn it.

If you don't post what you understand from reading something, it's impossible to assess what you understood from reading words you claim failed to address your question.

Quote:

Do...it does not answer my question even remotely.

Not in the slightest does it answer the question.

It evades the question.

NO...it does not answer the question.

You just posted four different lines of text to say 'no.' Again, if you don't explain how you read something and yet it didn't address your question, you're just not reading actively. Maybe you just have a very narrow mind or weak reading skills. If you don't explain why something addressed to your question still doesn't make sense to you, how can I work with you to make it more understandable?

Quote:
No rational person would think that your word salad in any way answers my question...and most intelligent people would say that your comments do not even come close to answering it.

I don't think you actually read and understood what I wrote. Either that or you just didn't like that I pointed out how slavery still exists to varying degrees when wages are paid for obliged labor.
Jesus told rich people to give away their wealth if they want to be perfect, but He forgave them for not being perfect. Wealth includes slaves, so that answers your question.

Quote:
I expect that some people would even say that your response does not even significantly TOUCH on my question.

If so, they are lying or they can't read properly.

I hope that answers your question.

Quote:
Now...for my question: Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

Perhaps my answer to the previous poster might help you form an answer.

You don't want the actual answer to your question. I have given you all direct quotes from the Bible that address the issue of wealth and sin, Jesus' prescription for what to do with wealth if you seek perfection; PLUS I explained to you how Jesus deals with people who fail to achieve perfection, i.e. sinners.

If you can't understand any of this, you should explain why and try. If you don't, you're just playing a game of trying to ignore what the Bible actually says about the question you are asking in order to deny the answer to the question you are pretending to ask for the sake of arguing against religion.


Ummm...by why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

Start with..."Jesus never condemned slavery, because..."

C'mon. Just give it a try.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 08:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
I’m glad you’re no longer so bloody minded, the hyphen is optional btw.

Poppycock is a word Americans use to try to sound more British, especially when talking to us. It’s not a word we tend to use any more it’s quite archaic.

I’m glad you’re enjoying the killer sudokus.

There’s some pretty good books on Kindle, and the really good one has only just been uploaded.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 08:58 am
@livinglava,
livinglava wrote:


The reason Jesus did not condemn slavery (or it was not reported that Jesus condemned slavery) is because....

1) Jesus did not condemn sin. He forgave it. He died to give sinners life, not take their lives away with judgment/condemnation of sin.


C'mon, LL...knock off the nonsense. Of course Jesus condemned sin.

Here are two examples:

45 While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples,
46 “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.
47 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

Luke 20:45-47

There he condemned the sin of Pride.



21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you,
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 5:21-26

There he condemned the sin of anger.

So...ummm...(and I think I asked you this before)...why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 09:03 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I’m glad you’re no longer so bloody minded, the hyphen is optional btw.

Poppycock is a word Americans use to try to sound more British, especially when talking to us. It’s not a word we tend to use any more it’s quite archaic.

I’m glad you’re enjoying the killer sudokus.

There’s some pretty good books on Kindle, and the really good one has only just been uploaded.


I love 'em. Do one EVERY NIGHT. EVERY NIGHT.

Mostly just the hard ones. The extreme once in a while. (I now understand what you meant when you said "look for patterns"...but I tend to over-do it with them. Lots of them require at least one guess...and I make decent guesses, but I hate resorting to guesses even for a short term gain. (The guesses are never just guesses, but more estimates.)

I can never thank you enough for introducing me to them.

(That doesn't mean we cannot argue a lot, though!)
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 09:06 am
@Frank Apisa,
I don’t do them as much, they take up too much time. I tend to do the ones in the paper when I get one.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 09:17 am
@izzythepush,
Poem of mine from a while back that came to mind when you commented on "poppycock":

He’s An Englishman Doing An American Accent


He’s an Englishman
Doing an American accent.
Which means he’s gonna use “gonna” a lot.

And he’s gonna use “wanna” every bit as much.
“Gotta” will be working overtime, too,
As will the double negatives.

If you are an Englishman
Who wants to do an American accent,
A great sentence to practice would be:

“I don’t wanna be no party pooper,
But I gotta be home by 10,
So I’m gonna leave now.”


In any case, British and Australian actors do a MUCH better job using an American accent...than any American is able to do for an British sound. (Note that I do not call it a British accent. We have the accent...not youse.)

Damien Lewis, Hugh Laurie, Daniel Day-Lewis, Christian Bale, Rupert Friend, David Harewood.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 09:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Even those who can do them trip up on particular words like python, Amazon and pentagon. Even John Oliver sounds American when he says them.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 09:52 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

C'mon, LL...knock off the nonsense. Of course Jesus condemned sin.

Here are two examples:

45 While all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples,
46 “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.
47 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”

Luke 20:45-47

There he condemned the sin of Pride.

Sin is condemned yet forgiven and sinners redeemed.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So we condemn ourselves by sinning, yet through Christ we are given second-birth/second-chances to get better.

Quote:
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you,
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 5:21-26

There he condemned the sin of anger.

Again, sin is rebuked but ultimately He says to forgive enemies and be reborn of spirit and die to sin.

Quote:
So...ummm...(and I think I asked you this before)...why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery?

Why don't you recognize slavery in the story of the rich man?:
Quote:

The Rich Young Man
(Mark 10:17-31; Luke 18:18-30)

16Just then, a man came up to Jesus and inquired, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to obtain eternal life?”

17“Why do you ask Me about what is good?”e Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18“Which ones?” the man asked.

Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, 19honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.’f ”

20“All these I have kept,” said the young man. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away in sorrow, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

What is wealth except control of resources, including human labor? What is slavery except control of human labor?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 10:46 am
We are all slaves to something I guess. Ya have ta serve somebody as Mr. D's song says.
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 10:50 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

We are all slaves to something I guess. Ya have ta serve somebody as Mr. D's song says.

Romans 6:
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Apr, 2020 03:20 pm
@livinglava,
How about being a slave to the gods Zeus or Jupiter as there is zero indicated that either of those gods are any more real or any less real then the Christian three in one god an to me they seems more interesting then the Christian make up god.
livinglava
 
  0  
Reply Thu 30 Apr, 2020 07:35 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

How about being a slave to the gods Zeus or Jupiter as there is zero indicated that either of those gods are any more real or any less real then the Christian three in one god an to me they seems more interesting then the Christian make up god.

Being a 'slave to God' just means you don't seek rewards for doing what's right and good.

There is no moral relativism. You can't pick your god(s) and maintain a clear conscience by serving the one(s) you want and not the ones you don't want. Doing that is the same thing as rationalizing sin.

Do you not accept that there is ultimate right and wrong? Do you think that you can pick and choose morality without knowing deep in your heart that you are engaged in self-deception to get away with things that are actually wrong?
 

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