9
   

Is the Euro well and truly buggered?

 
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 10:20 am
@CalamityJane,
That boat isn't sinking yet. If the European banks go down (and they might) the US banks won't be far behind. One analysis (from UBS in London):
http://av.r.ftdata.co.uk/files/2011/12/UBS_collapse_secession.gif
Quote:
...... Talk about fantasy. That’s like asking Wellington to stress test his army against a scenario where Napoleon has a B-52 at Waterloo. You don’t re-position the troops—you retreat as quickly as possible across the channel, if not across the Atlantic.

Of course, we get it, contingency planning is prudent. But just what contingency are we planning for? In break-up new currencies will be introduced. But will they trade freely? Probably not. As we noted in our original piece on the costs of break-up, it is highly probable that capital controls would accompany exit. Spot, forward, futures, swaps, options and other currency derivative contracts might not even materialize, or perhaps only for limited current account transactions. Companies preparing plans on how they might manage multi-currency cash flows in a post-Eurozone world might be advised instead to pay attention to the risk of not getting paid at all, never mind in which currency. Counterparty risk—bank-to-bank and company-to-company—would soar as defaults mount.

Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 10:54 am
@hawkeye10,
"Did they not know or was it that they did not care? Clearly the rush to expand the Euro shows that the dreams of a utopia trumped the nuts and bolts of building a better Europe. We also see that Europeans fell for the same mistakes we Americans did, underestimating risk, and not planning for the inevitable down cycles that capitalism produces."

At the time, the British Government went to great lengths to try to tell the Euro currency enthusiasts that a single currency would never work unless there was a single, uniform system of taxation, etc., across all countries involved. It would mean the certain handing over of large swathes of sovereign power to a central European body, and that was one of the main reasons that Britain was against it.
The response from Delors et al was to throw insults at the UK, calling us "little Englanders" and such, and very similar to what is being said now by Sarkozy, telling Cameron to shut up, and Merkel, dropping strong hints that whoever disagrees with their (her?) new idea about central regulation will be sidelined in a big way.
France and Germany bent the rules massively when the Euro was starting up, purely in order to get as many countries as possible on board, letting Ireland, Spain, Italy (big time), Portugal and Greece off the hook time and time again regarding their national debt situations, and now their chickens have not only come home to roost, they are crapping all over Berlin and Paris.
The "answer"? surprise surprise.....France and Germany are now pushing like hell for centralised supervisory power over all the fiscal policies of every country in the Eurozone. Jacques Delors by the back door, you could say.

If one were to view this with a cynical eye, one might imagine that this was the end game all along. It has turned out to be much more dramatic and serious than Delors and his German counterpart at the time could have imagined, but as long as the end result is the same in the long run (10 years from now when everyone has recovered and is having their budgets set by technocrats in Brussels) ......Job Done!

Is it a case of "well played, Jacques", after all?


hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:01 am
@Old Goat,
Quote:
If one were to view this with a cynical eye, one might imagine that this was the end game all along. It has turned out to be much more dramatic and serious than Delors and his German counterpart at the time could have imagined, but as long as the end result is the same in the long run (10 years from now when everyone has recovered and is having their budgets set by technocrats in Brussels) ......Job Done!


They wanted a United States of Europe and if the people dont right now revolt they shall have it. But it was arrived at by the back door though, and while lying to the people....not cool. The Countries of Europe are about to become countries in name only, under a federal government of Europe that is not elected and which has historically showed little interest in what the people want.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:01 am
@High Seas,
Scary scenario; which Euro currency will be accepted and not accepted? WOW~!
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:10 am
@hawkeye10,
"They wanted a United States of Europe and if the people dont right now revolt they shall have it."

As far as the grand idea of the U.S.E is concerned, we Brits have been revolting since day one, as any French citizen will tell you.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:11 am
@cicerone imposter,
That's only one analysis. There are other, less scary ones (except when it comes to banks, where incipient panic is spreading) like this one from Nomura:
http://av.r.ftdata.co.uk/files/2011/12/Nomura_PostEZcurrencies.png
Note: the numbers are Nomura's estimates for what the euro successor currencies - if it comes to that - will be worth per $. (now Euro 1=$1.33 approx.)
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:19 am

Mervyn King (Governor of the Bank of England) the other day.....


"The Bank of England has urged British banks to build up their capital reserves on Thursday as it confirmed that it is making contingency plans for the break-up of the eurozone.

Sir Mervyn King, governor of the Bank of England, insisted that UK banks were well-capitalised but - with the storm in the eurozone escalating - it was "sensible" to improve their resilience.

King warned that "an erosion of confidence" was damaging economic activity, creating "a spiral characteristic of a systemic crisis."

King's warning came as European Central Bank president Mario Draghi admitted that the risks to Europe's economy have worsened this week. David Cameron also said on Thursday morning that the eurozone crisis could badly hurt the UK economy.

"If the euro fell apart what you would see is a very steep decline in the GDP, the economic growth, of all countries in Europe, including Britain ... because there would be massive dislocation, huge problems with European banks," the prime minister told ITV's This Morning programme.

King refused to say what plans he was making for a default within the eurozone, admitting that "none of us really know" how the crisis will play out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/01/mervyn-king-bank-reserves-eurozone-crisis?newsfeed=true
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure that he was giving out a "read between the lines" message to the UK banks on this one, and that was "get rid of any risky euro exposure while you can".

As things stand, British banks have a reasonably small exposure compared to France and Germany, but still enough to cause them a problem if it all goes tits up.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:19 am
@High Seas,
This paragraph from the NYT indicates that things are going to get much worse before anything shows any positive: Looks like a total collapse to this observer.

Quote:
If the euro is preserved and Europe moves toward a more unified future, Mrs. Merkel will probably win the lion’s share of the credit, perhaps one day being hailed as Europe’s savior. But if her prescriptions turn out to be inadequate, she could reap the blame for presiding over the collapse of the euro, with untold consequences for the world economy.


As interest rates continue to creep up for those insolvent countries, their ability to pay on their bonds is zilch. That's not a solution for the Euro.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:22 am
@Old Goat,
Old Goat wrote:


As far as the grand idea of the U.S.E is concerned, we Brits have been revolting since day one, as any French citizen will tell you.

As the IMF will also tell you, when your country arrived cap in hand in the mid 1970s. How's the economy doing now, btw, are you glad you kept the pound?
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:48 am
@High Seas,
The IMF isn't anything to do with the proposed U.S.E., is it?

Big mistake going to the IMF IMO. The Thatcher government panicked and chucked money at the markets, and the only person who profited from it all was George Soros.

Our economy is pretty poor at the moment, but for entirely different reasons to what's caused the Euro debacle.
We have just come out of the long and disastrous Labour Blair/Brown era, where they basically sold all of the family silver in order to fool everyone that everything was fine. Their outgoing treasury guy actually left a hand written note (true) to the incoming Tory Chancellor, saying something crass like "sorry old boy, there's no money left....good luck".

Blair was possibly the worst Prime Minister this country has ever endured, with Brown being the worst Chancellor. His (Brown's) only saving grace was that he kept us out of the Euro.

The present new Government now has to do the nasty mucking out of the stables, but try to balance austerity (we're slowly drowning, just paying the massive interest on the diabolical debt that Labour ran up) with not doing so much cutting as to plunge the country in to recession.

I wouldn't want Osborne's job. Bugger that for a lark!

High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 11:57 am
@Old Goat,
Old Goat wrote:
The present new Government now has to do the nasty mucking out of the stables, but try to balance austerity (we're slowly drowning, just paying the massive interest on the diabolical debt that Labour ran up) with not doing so much cutting as to plunge the country in to recession.

Drowning in debt is the common lot in Europe, sadly - don't think the US is far behind, either.... Smart of you to export Tony Blair to our shores, btw; he's joined Bill Clinton in an advisory firm charging the now bankrupt MF Global $250,000 /mo for "public relations". The FBI is looking into this PR.
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 12:02 pm
@High Seas,
Blair made the deluded mistake of thinking that he would be received well when he attended a book "signing" of his Autobiography at a well known book store not long ago.
He was very nearly lynched.

We didn't export him. He simply eluded the Posse. Two faced, slimy Bushpoodle, self serving bastard!

Can you tell I don't like him much?
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2011 12:15 pm
@Old Goat,

I share OG's deep antipathy towards Tony Blair.
In fact if I met him in the street, I would punch him in the head.*
Blair too.
Wink





*(Probably saying "Ich bin ein Iraqi)
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2011 08:45 am
@McTag,
Since we seem to have a British members' quorum on this thread I looked up old issues of Hansard mentioning loans to Greece - it's same old, same old:
Quote:
.......the course proposed by the Russian Minister was contrary to the independence of the Greek nation, because it would enable Russia to keep up a general sort of control over the conduct of the Government and over the finances of the country hereafter..
......... The Duke of Wellington said, it appeared to him that it was not necessary to take the occasion of the introduction of this Bill to enter into a general discussion with reference to the foreign policy of this country. A good deal could certainly be said on the subject; but he did not think that it would tend to any useful object to introduce such a discussion at present, nor was it desirable, for various reasons, to be drawn into a discussion of so wide a nature under existing circumstances.
..........Viscount Melbourne perfectly concurred in the sentiment of the noble Duke, that it would have been better if the three states could have been brought to act together...........He trusted, however, that the course which had been pursued, involved no risk of this country separating her policy from that of France and Russia in respect of Greece.
.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1836/aug/16/greek-loan
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2011 09:48 am
@High Seas,

How interesting.

And they've got the cheek to ask for their Marbles back.

Seems they lost their marbles a long time ago.

Sorry for weak joke.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2011 01:20 pm
Europe Is Moving Toward the Abyss

Quote:
We are directionally moving toward the abyss," says Euro expert, native Italian, and founder of the Zebra Fund Fil Zucchi.
As has long been apparent, the crux of the issues are the differing principles and needs of the nations involved. Zucchi says the best solutions require printing money and risking inflation; prospects instinctively horrifying to the member nation with the most sway in the Eurozone: Germany.
Until "the Germans and to a certain degree the French decide to accept inflation, there's no way out," Zucchi tells me, putting a damper on the otherwise upbeat Festivus charity event.
Zucchi notes that Germany's history with inflation doesn't bode well for a comprehensive solution to Europe's woes anytime soon. The country's "DNA is to prevent inflation (and not) repeat the Weimar scenario just like our DNA is prevent deflation and another depression."
Given this inherent fear of inflation and the political impracticality of forcing French or German citizens to bailout the weaker members of the Eurozone, hoping for the best seems unrealistic. That said, Zucchi is guardedly optimistic about Europe's ability to avoid the worst.
"I am somewhat hopeful we are not going to see a violent uprising," he offers. So there's that.
"If the ECB went all-in there would be an extension of the amount of time to deal with the debt crisis," concludes Zucchi with relative optimism.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/europe-moving-toward-abyss-fil-zucchi-171255387.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2011 01:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
This sentence said it best,
Quote:
As has long been apparent, the crux of the issues are the differing principles and needs of the nations involved.


We've known this since the Euro's inception. So what took them so long to realize this simple concept?
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2011 02:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
We've known this since the Euro's inception. So what took them so long to realize this simple concept?


Before that actually.........I am very curious of what the plan was, why was this not supposed to be a problem? We have seen some migration of youth across boarders in search of work but it is hard to imagine that these utopia builders actually thought that nationality could be rubbed out anytime soon. This is especially true when the people were never given much reason to love Brussels, the new EU institutions.

WTF were they thinking?? DID they think...was this a " we will figure that out later" kind of thing?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2011 06:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
True! Most of us already understood the difficulties when just one country's politicians have difficulty arriving at agreements on their own budget, and to get 17-countries to agree was already a failure before they even started.

Each country has different needs, inflation rates, monetary policies, and a different economy for exports and imports.

The financial experts in each country should have known this simple truth before they even contemplated a universal currency that assured inflation for most of them - and the unknown future of tax revenue - dependent on their ability to compete on equal footing with other zone economies. If their infrastructure, economic environment, and educational levels differed, it's already a far gone conclusion that they're playing with fire, and yet they jumped into the smoke.

Does't make any sense. Even for the big boys like Germany and France where their sophistication on economics are much higher.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Dec, 2011 06:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I will be watching how well Europe holds together. The danger is that since this Euro plan was primarily invented and pushed by Germany and France that their current call of " we all have to stick together" falls on deaf ears. Does the rest of Europe now take the tack of " this was your DUMB idea France and Germany, so screw off with your current guidance!" ?

No less than Sarkozy himself has admitted that the introduction of the Euro was deeply flawed....what this means in no uncertain terms is the Germany and France screwed up. Their credibility going forwards is suspect at best.
0 Replies
 
 

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