igm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 07:22 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I am reminded of something I heard once.

The past is history
The future is a mystery
This moment is a gift, and that's why we call it the present.

But when it comes to the linear model of time that we automatically apply to events we observe, it may be that it is merely a tool of our perception. The more I think on it the more it becomes clear to me that everything happens now, even the past and the future. It may sound paradoxical, but it is not. The alternative would be that something can happen in the future, but that is just a prediction of the present. Whatever we, in this moment, can predict will happen cannot happen before the moment we predict has become the present. Time exists only in perception.

That sounds to me like someone...on the right track!
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 09:02 am
@igm,
Sounds essentially right to me also. It seems that linear time (indeed time or duaration in general) is a function of our nature. The capacity for memory has something to do with it also. My problem, however, is the feeling that "now" makes no sense without "past" and "future." Of course something doesn't have to "make sense" to be so. It is "sensible" to me (or us) because it reflects our nature. Cryacuz: "Time exists only in [our] perception". The ETERNAL present includes "past" and "future."
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 09:09 am
@dpmartin,
dpmartin
One force of which every single thing is an expression. Living things can indeed chose, but what would that be worth if there were no choices? Our ability to chose is simply our command of a small fraction of this force, but both our choices and our limitations are given by it.

I am sure a name for this force already hangs on the tip of the tongue of everyone who reads this, but if we use it we simultaneously invoke centuries of dogmatic thinking which only serves to cloud the issue. Just try to form a concept of everything that exists as one singular unit. After all, we cannot rightly deny that it is....
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 09:45 am
@dpmartin,
...think of a film where a man is arguing the entire lenght he can choose and proving it...and yet, bottom line, you have the tape in your hands...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 09:50 am
@Cyracuz,
...agreeing with every bit with the exception that the linear experience of time is exclusively human or biological, just like "observation" I believe its a general relational effect of every sub set of such a unit...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 10:35 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Not exclusively human or biological... A thing of perception was what I said.
0 Replies
 
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:26 am
@G H,
G H wrote:

When construed as passive, cosmological laws are invented -- they are conceptions and formulations by observing agents who are also creative thinkers. These laws are generalizations that describe recurring or reliable facts and events in nature.

When construed as active, laws are discovered, and would be capturing or representing rules that things are literally conforming to ("things" as defined in the broadest sense). These intelligible rules would not be more objects that exist in yet another place -- they would instead engender the very somewhere(s) and somewhen(s) in which things acquire an ontological and epistemological status. Such intelligible laws stop the endless repetition of explanations that require more explanations -- the insanity that results from worlds having their origins in other worlds, from spatiotemporal levels having their origin in other spatiotemporal levels.

For instance, if causation was an active rather than passive concept or generalization that the universe's existence was dependent upon and that its content was conforming to, then causation would be one of those supposed ultimate provenances and templates. There would be no "cause" for "causation" since it would be the very source of that necessity.


G H
thanks for the reply
Sorry dude, it seems to me that science doesn’t a agree with that, in general science now a days in agrees that the universe had a start (calling it the Big Bang) what you speak of sounds like what used to be considered, the universe was forever there, therefore its own cause. If the universe had a start, then what caused that? Of which, the universe is not its own cause, if it had a start. But that’s not what I was asking about.


dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:33 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

The "laws" of nature are actually just observations of its structure. Nature doesn't obey the laws, it is the laws.


rosborne
thanks for the reply

Not so sure about that, the universe conforms, in a manner that one can learn and express the knowledge of therefore the laws are expressible, and knowable, which makes the difference. How is it that the universe knows something that without a living thing to express it, can’t express it? But yet a living, can express the knowledge of.
dpmartin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:40 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

dpmartin
One force of which every single thing is an expression. Living things can indeed chose, but what would that be worth if there were no choices? Our ability to chose is simply our command of a small fraction of this force, but both our choices and our limitations are given by it.

I am sure a name for this force already hangs on the tip of the tongue of everyone who reads this, but if we use it we simultaneously invoke centuries of dogmatic thinking which only serves to cloud the issue. Just try to form a concept of everything that exists as one singular unit. After all, we cannot rightly deny that it is....


Cyracuz
thanks for the reply

No thanks, any one can see that light and darkness are not one and the same, I have no need to try to form a concept of everything that exists as one singular unit, its not reality, and only in your head.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:51 am
@dpmartin,
Actually, it is reality.
It's what we've been taught by the oldest religions in the world, and it is also what we are finding in the newest sciences we have today.

Have a look at this if you want. Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psXMEfGda7s&feature=related
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:54 am
@dpmartin,
I can't imaging the universe being caused (the Big Bang only begs the question: what caused it?): God is sometimes seen as that cause but He is then seen as uncaused. Why not attribute that trait (i.e., being uncaused) to the universe itself? I think this trap (as well as "infinite regression") is a result of our very nature. We have an almost genotypical need to think in terms of causation, but this doesn't prove that causes and effects exist in themselves (I think but never see them) or that determinism is a cosmological axiom. It's a paradigmatic assumption, and all assumptions, even those considered axiomatic, are fundamentally provisional.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:59 am
@JLNobody,
By the way, the Big Bang is not the origin of the Universe, only a change in its form. The term, "universe," should include the conditions preceding the Big Bang.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 12:03 pm
@JLNobody,
What we often forget when talking about the big bang theory is that it was proposed by a priest. He was a physicist also, but he organized his scientific finds according to a linear model he knew from religion. A good example of how deep our conditioning goes. We have to shed it all to see clearer.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 12:11 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

What we often forget when talking about the big bang theory is that it was proposed by a priest. He was a physicist also, but he organized his scientific finds according to a linear model he knew from religion. A good example of how deep our conditioning goes. We have to shed it all to see clearer.


who is this priest ? never heard of this
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 12:37 pm
@north,
From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Monsignor Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître ( lemaitre.ogg (help·info) 17 July 1894 – 20 June 1966) was a Belgian priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Louvain. He sometimes used the title Abbé or Monseigneur.
Lemaître proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom'.


Just do a search of the big bang theory. It's common knowledge, or at least it should be. The information is easily accessible...
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 01:37 pm
@Cyracuz,
Does it not appear that Lemaitre's hypothesis was supported by astrophysical research? My point was not that the Big Bang did not exist; I was suggesting that what it produced was not the Universe but changes in its form. I open my fingers and my fist becomes my hand, different forms of the same thing.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 02:22 pm

the thing is with the big-bang is that , if we look at the Universe three dimensionaly

galaxies would be coming towards us as well
G H
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 02:41 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
I think this trap (as well as "infinite regression") is a result of our very nature. We have an almost genotypical need to think in terms of causation, but this doesn't prove that causes and effects exist in themselves (I think but never see them) or that determinism is a cosmological axiom. It's a paradigmatic assumption, and all assumptions, even those considered axiomatic, are fundamentally provisional.

I agree somewhat, but not in any sense that a current formal or social consensus is yielding the reality presented to me (that it is dependent upon the results of human debate, rather than what already comes installed as part of us).

Intelligible templates like causation should be transcendental rather than transcendent -- that is, what experience and thought conform to rather than our metaphysically reifying them. If pink gremlins should someday start materializing randomly from thin air, and most people interpersonally confirm seeing and interacting with them, then we'll finally know that even our forms for introspective thought and the ordering of perception (outer sense) are mutable. But until then, I expect nature -- that order of the phenomenal cosmos exhibited in the external or intersubjective part of experience -- to behave itself in a reliable manner! Smile
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 03:22 pm
@G H,
Agreed!
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 03:26 pm
@north,
Interesting. You are saying that in an expansive universe, some galaxies will be passing toward us on their way (away) from their present location?
 

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