ISLAM AND TERRORISM

@Krumple,

Quote:

We are animals and it is trying to forget that we are animals which gets us into trouble. That self centered egotistical thinking of self importance as if you are separate from animals which makes us neglect our responsibility to the planet. There are no devils, there are just people who make bad choices and they shouldn't be punished for eternity no matter what their crimes are.

If there is a god who allows anyone to be punished for eternity then I am more compassionate than that god because I would never create a being and expect it to behave a certain way and if it doesn't, punish it for eternity. You can't get any more cruel than that.

Speak for yourself Krumple.

While indeed we are "animals," we are much, much more.

We are self-aware and we are aware of the universe. What animal shares these gifts?

We began as a species not much different from all of others that have lived on earth and here we are debating the meaning of life.

We actually believe we can undertand all there is to understand about the universe, and my bet is that we can and will.

We've reached this point on our own and with no help from any external sources. We've figured out all we know by ourselves with one painful step after another.

We are finding our way back to the Godhead one painful step after another.

We are magnificent, despite all of our many flaws.

Our salvation is dependent not upon resuming a place among the other dumb beasts of the world (as if that were ever possible), but to break free of the natural processes that have brought us to this point.

There is no guarantee that we will be successful in achieving our ultimate goal. With each step forward we have made, there has been a heavy price to pay because with our supernatural (in the literal sense of the word) awareness, there are natural imperatives trying to force us to behave in a pattern that was developed by evolution to assist us in surviving, not in becoming enlightened.

Before we reach our goal, we will make more huge and horrible mistakes because the 'animal" in us will be with us for most of the ride. One of these mistakes may put a final end to our journey, Nothing is assured.

While we must remain mindful of the significance of individuals and the importance of the natural world if we are to have any chance of reaching our goal, we must also except that this is a grand journey and cannot be discontinued because someone has come up lame. It's something of a paradox which is helping us to reach the actual goal.

Our magificent journey can come to an end in several ways:

We can fail to rise above our animal natures and allow evolutionary patterns that never contemplated technology to destroy us,

We can fail to to maintain a balance between our origins and our progression.

We can allow well intentioned but short sighted people like you to apply the brakes.

Irrespective of whether or not a race of Morlocks is in our future, transforming ourselves into a natural race like the Eloi will be a deadend, and without Morlocks it will never happen.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Speak for yourself Krumple.

Isn't that what he was doing?

Quote:

We are self-aware and we are aware of the universe. What animal shares these gifts?

http://images.wikia.com/familyguy/images/1/12/Brian_Griffin.png

Quote:

Irrespective of whether or not a race of Morlocks is in our future, transforming ourselves into a natural race like the Eloi will be a deadend, and without Morlocks it will never happen

.

Have you read the book, or are you basing everything on the movies? I can't see how being either Eloi or Morlock would be anybody's goal, it's not evolution, it's atavism.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Wow!

Another unexpected layer to Fido.

How to reconcile Fido the Revolutionary with Fido the Spiritual?

To what must we submit and how does that concept square with revolution?

You don't seem to want to render unto Ceasar what is his.

The first question is easy... I am not spiritual, so no reconciliation is needed... Spritualism is a phase all of mankind has gone through and most keep as part of their character forever... You cannot understand people without understandiing spirituality... Not to say I truly understand either, but I may have more objective understanding than the next...

You should consider what Jesus was saying as a spiritual and practical man about Caesar and his coin: If you accept that all is God's coming from God, and belonging to God, then when belongs, really, to Caesar... He has only what he can grab and hold in his lifetime, and nothing of eternal values... What does any of us owe to people who do not grasp the meaning of their own lives let alone the lives they destroy to have more than the next??? We owe them nothing more than they can take, and should as quietly and peacably resist even that.... And not become them in the process of resisting them..

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
Life itself is humbling, and it will make you submit either to the laws of men as you see them, or to the laws of God as your recieve them... Until you have been drained... Until you have gone through some experience that takes everything out of you, and until you can reach down into the emptyness of your life and find the spiritual strength to continue, whether you should call that strength God, or Goodness meaning nothing, then you simply will not understand what I mean, and I do not expect you to...

Interesting.

Have you been drained and restored?

Drained, yes; but hardly restored... Sort of functional, barely...

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@izzythepush,

Oh look, izzy has commented on something I've written...<<<yawn>>>

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@Fido,

You may not think you are spiritual, but anyone reading the post to which I responded (except perhaps izzy the contrarian) is going to perceive spirituality, and not only because you encourage the deployment of "spiritual strength."

If you prefer to not consider yourself spiritual, that's fine.

You may very well be correct in your interpretation of the Gospel. I have not studied it so closely.

I tend to have a far more prosaic take on the bit about Caesar.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Speak for yourself Krumple.

Is this an order?

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

We are finding our way back to the Godhead one painful step after another.

I don't see us progressing as such. If the last fifty to hundred years has shown that we are relying more on reality to explain the workings of the universe rather than through myths.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Our salvation is dependent not upon resuming a place among the other dumb beasts of the world (as if that were ever possible), but to break free of the natural processes that have brought us to this point.

This is where all the problems come from, by trying to break free of the natural process which got us to this point. Separating ourselves from our nature and forgetting that we are animals is very problematic.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

We can allow well intentioned but short sighted people like you to apply the brakes.

Or people like you who want to drag us back to a less progressive state? We are transcending any need of spiritualism because it has been shown time and time again to oppose reality.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I tend to have a far more prosaic take on the bit about Caesar.

You seem to have a far more prosaic take on almost everything.

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H. G. Wells was more than a few bricks short of a load. His "futuristic" novels and his predictions for the future were loopier and loopier as they extended into the future. He predicted atomic weapons (although not their form, nor with any understanding of their power), and then predicted that their use would end war (as opposed to the human race). He predicted complete economic collapse in 1956 (this prediction was made in the Edwardian era). He was an erstwhile Fabian socialist, and saw the salvation of the world in a "league of free nations" which would succeed in bringing about peace and harmony because they would be socialist.

He was also an utter **** when it came to women, and fooled around on his wife (second wife) Catherine for 30 years. He was so unable to see people as real and see them for who they were that he always referred to Catherine as Jane. In The Outline of History, he completely ignores women, and the only mention of women comes in the form of their reference to men he considered important. Wells is hardly a source to look to for a realistic projection of the direction in which the human race would evolve.

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@Setanta,

Perhaps worse than any of that, is that without Wells we wouldn't have this.

Seriously I did like his books and read them avidly as a kid, but I wouldn't treat them as anything other than fiction. Finn seems to have problems with books, this is the third book I've challenged him on, and each time he goes strangely silent.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

You may not think you are spiritual, but anyone reading the post to which I responded (except perhaps izzy the contrarian) is going to perceive spirituality, and not only because you encourage the deployment of "spiritual strength."

If you prefer to not consider yourself spiritual, that's fine.

You may very well be correct in your interpretation of the Gospel. I have not studied it so closely.

I tend to have a far more prosaic take on the bit about Caesar.

I am far more emotional than rational, and spirituality is something none of us can completely escape, but I discount it as a force almost completely.... I respect people who are spiritual, because it is natual and cultural to be spiritual, because I respect all people without cause to do other wise, and because they can be so cold bloodedly dangerous...

Consider the Germans who are a very rational people... What has made them dangerous in the extreme is not their reason, but their reason in the service of an extreme spirituality... What they have done for God, or for Germaness, the German racial spirit, or soul is beyond frighting... Consider what we did in Vietnam and how many millions we killed... Yet, Ho Chi Minh pointed at the shoe being on the other foot... The traditionally spiritual East was fighting for a materialistic cause, and the U.S. was fighting for spiritual values like liberty... We might ask today what is the value of a full stomach without liberty or what is the value of liberty without a full stomach, but is the difference worth the life of a single person??? If you say: Better dead than Red, then the answer is obvious, but that answer is purely excuse...

I might add that apart from religion, the Muslims I have met have first class minds capable of the finest reason... Without wishing to demean Islam in the least since to understand them is to realize their world contribution to philosophy, mathematics and science... But at some point, Islam rejected reason, and when they quit seeking after a logical proof for God they went dead in the water, so to speak... Their contribution to the world has only been seen in recent years through their exported individuals, and personally, I admire them and do business with them...

I do not pretend to understand Islam or the sort of honor and devotion demanded of a Muslim for his faith... Nor do I pretend to understand spiritualism which often involves the total rejection of reason in the pursuit of The God... I would say, that from the perspective of a Christian as a branch of Judaism observing Islam as a branch of Judaism; I find nothing in the two religions that is strictly incompatible... The differences as always are social, and personal, between people who see their gain in what they can take from others, or ascend to positions of power in stiring up hatred and misunderstanding... On the whole; Muslims are more true to their religion, and we are not... They can well call us the Great Satan... We put every imaginable object between our God and our selves... What we worship is clear... And that we will kill the devout is also clear... We have no respect for anything holy...

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Speak for yourself Krumple.

Is this an order?

No, it's a turn a phrase Krumple. Are you really this literal?

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

We are finding our way back to the Godhead one painful step after another.

I don't see us progressing as such. If the last fifty to hundred years has shown that we are relying more on reality to explain the workings of the universe rather than through myths.

You are making the assumption that the path back to the Godhead cannot be through science and technology.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Our salvation is dependent not upon resuming a place among the other dumb beasts of the world (as if that were ever possible), but to break free of the natural processes that have brought us to this point.

This is where all the problems come from, by trying to break free of the natural process which got us to this point. Separating ourselves from our nature and forgetting that we are animals is very problematic.

All of the problems? Really?

Like the problem of war?

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

We can allow well intentioned but short sighted people like you to apply the brakes.

Or people like you who want to drag us back to a less progressive state? We are transcending any need of spiritualism because it has been shown time and time again to oppose reality.

It seems that you believe the perfect state of Man is in some sort of fanciful Eden where we, like the noble savages, recognize that we are but one small part of nature.

Wow, that's surely a progressive concept.

The notion of spirituality which you find so problematic is precisely the product of man's natural development.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

You know izzy, you don't really have to comment on every post I make.

I have read the book and I have seen the movie (the original and the remake).

Irrespective of whether your opinion concerning atavisim is on point, perhaps you can appreciate that characters from a novel or a movie can become metaphors beyond what the author or director originally intended, and so arguing what was Wells precise intent with Eloi and Moorlock, in the context of this thread, is immaterial. You know, sort of like not considering the phrase "speak for youself" to be an order.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Thank you for that excerpt from "Setanta's Historical Othodoxy," but you, like izzy, seem to have a problem with the concept of metaphors, and especially ones that have developed over time.

If there was someone citing Wells as a source for a realistic projection of the direction of human evolution that by all means, let's tar and feather the bastard.

What's particularly sad about you Set is that you struggle mightily to be pedantic.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

You don't have to comment on my posts either. Metaphors only work if they're something everyone can agree on. Yours seem to be peculiar to yourself.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Krumple wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Speak for yourself Krumple.

Is this an order?

No, it's a turn a phrase Krumple. Are you really this literal?

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

We are finding our way back to the Godhead one painful step after another.

I don't see us progressing as such. If the last fifty to hundred years has shown that we are relying more on reality to explain the workings of the universe rather than through myths.

You are making the assumption that the path back to the Godhead cannot be through science and technology.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Our salvation is dependent not upon resuming a place among the other dumb beasts of the world (as if that were ever possible), but to break free of the natural processes that have brought us to this point.

This is where all the problems come from, by trying to break free of the natural process which got us to this point. Separating ourselves from our nature and forgetting that we are animals is very problematic.

All of the problems? Really?

Like the problem of war?

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

We can allow well intentioned but short sighted people like you to apply the brakes.

Or people like you who want to drag us back to a less progressive state? We are transcending any need of spiritualism because it has been shown time and time again to oppose reality.

It seems that you believe the perfect state of Man is in some sort of fanciful Eden where we, like the noble savages, recognize that we are but one small part of nature.

Wow, that's surely a progressive concept.

The notion of spirituality which you find so problematic is precisely the product of man's natural development.

Relying upon reality to explain the workings of the universe??? Really??? Reality is the working of the universe...

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@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Relying upon reality to explain the workings of the universe??? Really??? Reality is the working of the universe...

Reality is a consequence of not enough alcohol.

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@Fido,

I'm afraid I don't follow your argument.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I'm afraid I don't follow your argument.

My argument is simply to reproduce your phrase which I doubt that you considered fully before printing...

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@Fido,

Agree with you Mr.

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