Illegal immigrants

In terms of physics, yes, it makes a sound. As for writing my congressman, I write to Diane Feinstein often. Does it do any good? I'm not sure, but I try. I also vote in every presidential election.

Hi cravan: No one but you has said anything racist. If you want to define racists as daring to discus the implications of USA domestic policy, I suggest you put a large sign on your home saying " come on in Share my house, no obligation, cart off my stuff, I've got plenty" That will prove craven is not a racist.
Your inference seems to be that is the sort of sign The USA should post at our borders. From the above you have likely guessed I resent your double assertion that I am a racist. I am not, but we have to draw the line somewhere short of giving away the store, if for no other reason than to be fair to those we gave amnesty to in 1986 and 1990. They have far more to lose than I if the USA gets 50 million immigrants between 2004 and 2012. Neil

neil, For what it's worth, I doubt very much that Craven is a racist.

What did I say that was racist? ;-)



That has very little to do with racism.



Yes I did note the resentment as it was manifested in the least logical tit-for-tat accusation I have recently seen.

The inference that you are racist is not something I have said.

I did say that you expressed racist views and I stand by that assertion.

It's not because of a wish to protect what we have but specifically because of the racist opinions you expressed about non-Americans and the proposed "semi-humane" treatement of them. You went so far as calling them "marginal humans"! How is that not racist?

See fbaezer's post for a very well done carping of that brainfart.

Regards.

Hmmm - my country, Australia, has adopted a very rigid stance on illegal immigrants/asylum seekers - somewhat similar to that which Neil is advocating. This is supposed to cut off the supply of illegals to the people who make their living by taking their money and shipping them here in horrible, leaky, dangerous boats.

What it HAS done is cause many people to be locked up in prison-like detention centres - INCLUDING CHILDREN - sometimes for years - while their appeals against deportation orders are processed. These people are severely traumatised - like they weren't already...

It has caused the federal government to declare parts of Australia NOT to be parts of Australia (in a game in which the government makes the decree, deports the asylum seekers easily, since - for a short period - they are deemed not to have made landfall in Australia - then watches and laughs as the decree is overturned by the opposition parties' united stand in the Upper House of federal parliament - only to do it all again later).

It has caused my country to be condemned by the United Nations for failing to honour international treaties on the rights of refugees - which it has SIGNED - and to become one of those countries which wails like jackals about the nosiness of the UN.

If a country has a soul, it has severely damaged ours.

And it has made me ashamed of my country.

So it goes....

Why is it that in these discussions someone ofttimes raises the specter of racism? Race hasn't as damn thing to do with it.

Neil raised the subject of racism by considering them to be "marginal humans" worthy of "semi-humane" treatment.

To say immigration and racism are not related is to ignore very well documented history.

Dear c.i.,

Thanks for all the sweet letters. I miss you too. I'll try to hook up with you the next time I'm back in California. Until then,

Kisses and hugs,

Diane

XOXOXOXO

Actually it was the non alien marginal people I was concered about being kept out of the job market by the illegal imigrants who are superior in most respects. I think the illegal imigrents are sufficiently good workers that they can replace up to 80 % of the USA work force simply because they are eagar to take a job at half pay. Wages will fall, working condition will worsen and the illegals will have jobs while unemployment could reach 50 % amoung workers whose parents were USA citizens. If the shakers and movers do things the best way, we could have near full employment for the 400 million persons living in the USA, but the the actions of the lasst decade make that seem unlikely. I am not a racist just trying to analyze. refute if you can but don't say the words are racist. If we do affirmative action for illegal aliens, would you not expect lots more to cross the border? Neil

This is a problem also illustrated by Israel.

If Israel grants "The right of return" to people displaced by the creation of the "Jewish" state then Israel will cease to exist.

If the US and Australia and to a lesser degree Canada opens their borders will they cease to exist as a viable republican democracy?

Personally I don't think so as most of the people wishing to enter the aforementioned "nations" generally wish to emulate the conditions found there. The Palestinians officially deny Israels right to exist at all. This does not seem to be a problem with either the Central American of the Southeast Asian emmigrants.

Any company is duty bound to make its manufactures as inexpensive as possible to its customers. If Americans and Australians cannot work as efficiently as Mexicans and Asians this is more the fault of the employees and managers than the immigrants.

Nationalism rears its ugly head occasionally. Adam Smith will ensure that its macabre grin will eventually be wiped off. And Mexico and South East Asia's governers will eventually be supplanted by ones more responsive to the needs and aspirations of their citizens.

I'd bet on it but I won't hold my breath while I wait for it to happen. Meanwhile it behooves us not to add to the worlds miseries.

Sorry if I talk to much. Some problems just don't have easy answers.

Should have mentioned Europe. Germany in particular has a similar "problem" with Mid Eastern populations.

I haven't been following this thread, but, the original question accuses immigrants for having "bad attitudes." How did you know their attitudes are bad? This predjudicial sort of comment makes me not want to consider the rest of the question.
However, the immigrants I have personally known are just folks trying to find a niche in the world. If you want to blame somebody for lessening the quality of life in the USA blame the corporations for taking the jobs out of the country; blame the Republicans for blowing every nickle they can get on military adventurism and the like.

edgar, GWBush is now talking about getting man on mars. That should cost the taxpayers a few nickles heh?

A few quarters also.

Hi fishen: I should probably edit my original topic from one million to 2 million annual immigrants will cause great grief to some marginal humans born to USA citizen parents. Now that a dozen people have posted it is not helpful to correct my error retroactively. People like you and I with IQs of 140 or so have been little harmed by the 18 million illegal immigrants since 1986. Is the 18 million a minor or serious exaggeration?
Clearly 20 million Americans are experiencing great grief. In most cases it is partly their own fault. So we really can't determine how much grief is the result of illegal immigrants, but I feel sure the grief is already significant and more people will be adversely affected, more intensely if we get 50 million more illegal immigrants 2004 to 2012. My premise is we will get 50 million more illegal immigrants if we are overly compassionate dealing with the illegal immigrants already in the USA. Other than I, few have made suggestions on how we can slow the tide of illegal immigrants, but numerous suggestions by liberals and Democrats, and President GW Bush will be helpful in assuring 50 million or more illegal immigrants 2004 to 2012. Neil

In my own experience Neil, I don't see this laziness or "bad attitude" you attribute to immigrants (legal or otherwise). I don't have a whole lot of exposure to many illegal immigrants (that I know of anyway..) but I do know a few and they work harder than most people I know at jobs that others won't even consider.

They are here illegally and aren't really proud of that but saw no other option.

There are many reasons why 20 million Americans may be experiencing grief but I'd be very reluctant to pin that on illegal immigration or any other single attribute at all.

There are a few jobs most unemployed decendents of USA citizens would refuse, but not many, and there are already perhaps 18 million illegal imigrants to fill many fewer jobs. Many of the illegals do (for less than minimum wage) construction, carpentry, handy man and other jobs our high school graduates would accept at minimum wage. Neil

Hi fishen: I can't prove that the illegal aliens have caused lots of grief and I presume you can not prove they have caused negligible grief to persons whose parents are USA citizens.
I have no reason to think the illegal immigrants are inferior to persons whose parents are USA citizens. That is my point. Up to 80 % of us can be replaced by an illegal imigrent at little inconvenience to our former employer if the recent trends continue. Neil

Really? I can tell you that I end up picking up things at Home Depot about once every two weeks or so and there have been "Help Wanted" signs advertising full-time jobs in the $13-$18/hr range in the windows there for the last year. If current US citzens are willing to take these sorts of jobs then why are they open for so long while unemployement has gone up and people are dropping off of the back end of the unemployment program?

Hi Edgar: In the original topic, I suggested 3 shortcomings which totaled more than half of the illegal immigrants. I mentioned bad attitude 3d as perhaps the least common. You will conceed the illegal aliens who did 9-11 had a bad attitude, unless you believe the USA government destroyed the World Trade Center and the Fereral building in Oklahoma, City. Perhaps I have excessive standards, but half the people I meet (most born of USA citizens) have a bad attitude in one or more areas that would be important to some employers. Do you think the average illegal immigrant has a much better set of attitudes than most persons whose parents are USA citizens? Are we allowed to make no tentative judgements unless we can prove them rigorosly? Neil