10
   

Has Churchill said something like this?

 
 
Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:14 am
Have we yet shown Oristar (Remember him?) that
1) the alleged speech is a phony never made by Churchill
and
2) that there should be no use of it, with a disclaimer or without, because of the chance of its further distribution.

Let's stick to the true parts of History.
Joe( They are bad enough.)Nation
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:23 am
@Joe Nation,
We hope so.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:33 am
@Joe Nation,
Well done Joe(the voice of reason)Nation. I thought that I'd done that, but Malvolio is such a little tinker he just wouldn't let it lie. I seem to have got under his skin, and he's desperate to try and score points off me. To be quite honest I'll probably get tired of it before he does. It's a bit like mocking the village idiot.

Anyway Malvolio, your little outburst about The English Civil War,( if you don't mind I'll stick to the umbrella definition as recognised by most historians) seems to be that I've been a bit too hard on the Puritans. You probably don't consider Wikipedia a valid reference, but blow it here goes.

After the Parliamentarian victory in the Civil War, the Puritan views of the majority of Parliament and its supporters began to be imposed on the rest of the country. The Puritans advocated an austere lifestyle and restricted what they saw as the excesses of the previous regime. Most prominently, holidays such as Christmas and Easter were suppressed. Pastimes such as the theatre and gambling were also banned.

Perhaps you can address your next hissing fit at Wikipedia. I've got better things to do than waste time on this.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:33 am
@Joe Nation,
Actually, the very good, scholarly evidence that Churchill did not make any such speech was presented early in the thread by "Izzy." However, he could not resist attempting to gild the lily, at which point he wandered out of history and into fantasy.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:54 am
@JTT,
"What 'nice' about the grab, Pan."

It was interesting reading.
Will you stop looking for a knife fight all the time?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:56 am
@panzade,
I'm not looking for a knife fight, Pan. Did I run up one side of Tsars and down the other?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 09:58 am
@Setanta,
I would consider offering Setanta some advice that he should stop while he's still standing but he's always shown himself to be much too thick to heed advice.

0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 10:07 am
@JTT,
"Did I run up one side of Tsars and down the other?"

Nope. I thought you were sticking because I said "nice grab"
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 10:16 am
@panzade,
Quote:
Nope. I thought you were sticking because I said "nice grab"


I'm puzzled why you would ever think that, but no big deal, Panzade.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2011 10:17 am
@JTT,
Sometimes one misunderstands...no worries mate
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2011 08:31 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I'm sorry I thought I'd posted this earlier. This is from the website of Churchill historian Richard M Langworth.

Churchill made no speeches at all in the House of Com­mons after his retire­ment in 1955, accord­ing to Hansard, the offi­cial Par­lia­men­tary Debates. He did make a hand­ful of speeches dur­ing the 1959 British gen­eral elec­tion held on 8 Octo­ber 1959, but made no men­tion of Stalin, and he cer­tainly made no speeches after Octo­ber. In fact, the eight-volume Com­plete Speeches (Robert Rhodes James, edi­tor, New York: Bowker, 1974) con­tain no speeches at all after brief remarks at the unveil­ing of his statue in Wood­ford, Essex on Octo­ber 31st.

For years it has been stated or implied that Churchill gave a trib­ute to Stalin upon the latter’s death in 1953, or at some time there­after, but there is absolutely no truth to this. Churchill real­ized the truth about Stalin well before 1953. (He did say lauda­tory things about Stalin dur­ing the war, notably in 1942—but things were dif­fer­ent then.)




Can we search Hansard online (to check out the said above)?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2011 08:37 am
@oristarA,
Sorry, it looks like we can't yet. I've just been on the Hansard website and downloaded the following

Hansard
Hansard (the Official Report) is the edited verbatim report of proceedings of both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. Daily Debates from Hansard are published on this website the next working day by 6am.


Commons debates
Read Commons debates back to November 1988

Lords debates
Browse Lords debates by date back to 1995-96


Churchill died in 1965. I think the historian I quoted is fairly reliable though.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2011 08:41 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Sorry, it looks like we can't yet. I've just been on the Hansard website and downloaded the following

Hansard
Hansard (the Official Report) is the edited verbatim report of proceedings of both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. Daily Debates from Hansard are published on this website the next working day by 6am.


Commons debates
Read Commons debates back to November 1988

Lords debates
Browse Lords debates by date back to 1995-96


Churchill died in 1965. I think the historian I quoted is fairly reliable though.


Thank you.

Any link to Hansard?

I'd like to give it a try.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 May, 2011 08:52 am
@oristarA,
I've had problems placing links before but here goes

www.parliament.uk
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 May, 2011 02:07 pm
@izzythepush,
Commendable!
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 May, 2011 12:52 am
@panzade,
Thank you
0 Replies
 
Natalya P
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Aug, 2013 01:14 pm
@oristarA,
Yes this is a true fact!

WINSTON S. CHURCHILL: HIS COMPLETE SPEECHES 1897-1963, Robert Rhodes James, editor, NY: Bowker, 1974, vol. 6, p. 6674

“It was an experience of great interest to me to meet Premier Stalin. The main object of my visit was to establish the same relations of easy confidence and of perfect openness which I have built up with President Roosevelt. I think that, in spite of the accident of the Tower of Babel which persists as a very serious barrier in numerous spheres, I have succeeded to a considerable extent. It is very fortunate for Russia in her agony to have this great rugged war chief at her head. He is a man of massive outstanding personality, suited to the somber and stormy times in which his life has been cast; a man of inexhaustible courage and will-power, and a man direct and even blunt in speech, which, having been brought up in the House of Commons, I do not mind at all, especially when I have something to say of my own. Above all, he is a man with that saving sense of humour which is of high importance to all men and all nations, but particularly to great men and great nations. Stalin also left upon me the impression of a deep, cool wisdom and a complete absence of illusions of any kind. I believe I made him feel that we were good and faithful comrades in this war — but that, after all, is a matter which deeds, not words, will prove.”

Edit [Moderator]: Link removed
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Aug, 2013 04:45 pm
@Natalya P,
Natalya P wrote:
“It was an experience of great interest to me to meet Premier Stalin.... (etc)


1942, not 1959 as alleged in the piece quoted at the start of this 2 year old thread.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Aug, 2013 07:58 am
@Natalya P,
Natalya P wrote:

Yes this is a true fact!

WINSTON S. CHURCHILL: HIS COMPLETE SPEECHES 1897-1963, Robert Rhodes James, editor, NY: Bowker, 1974, vol. 6, p. 6674

“It was an experience of great interest to me to meet Premier Stalin. The main object of my visit was to establish the same relations of easy confidence and of perfect openness which I have built up with President Roosevelt. I think that, in spite of the accident of the Tower of Babel which persists as a very serious barrier in numerous spheres, I have succeeded to a considerable extent. It is very fortunate for Russia in her agony to have this great rugged war chief at her head. He is a man of massive outstanding personality, suited to the somber and stormy times in which his life has been cast; a man of inexhaustible courage and will-power, and a man direct and even blunt in speech, which, having been brought up in the House of Commons, I do not mind at all, especially when I have something to say of my own. Above all, he is a man with that saving sense of humour which is of high importance to all men and all nations, but particularly to great men and great nations. Stalin also left upon me the impression of a deep, cool wisdom and a complete absence of illusions of any kind. I believe I made him feel that we were good and faithful comrades in this war — but that, after all, is a matter which deeds, not words, will prove.”

Edit [Moderator]: Link removed


Thanks for the information.
0 Replies
 
Emsar Shalikashvili
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2014 09:23 am
@fresco,
http://youtu.be/w665yXiKjvE ------ this is the full speech on Russian.
 

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