A dying message from Hitchens an American Atheist

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Quote:
All I can say is leave it to an atheist to try to tell someone who and what God is.

No. I think we have discussed this before. Atheists are concerned about the adverse social effects of believing in "a God". They have no interest at all in the the details of what is for them a "non-entity".

If you don't mind my saying so, for something they have no interest in, they have an awful lot of opinions about that non-entity. Laughing

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

For one thing a belief in a magical being is a form of mental illness that can and have lead to killing your children in some jungle by having them drink poison or killing doctors or trying to force nonsense to be taught in the public school as science.

Hell flying airplanes into buildings is another example.

So you never can tell what harm a believer might do it he/she come under the control of the wrong person claiming to be a spoke person of god.

I have never killed anyone. I hold down a very stressful and busy job. I drive a vehicle. I take care of my animals. I love my husband. I have a decent IQ. I care about my friends. But, of course, since I believe in God, I am mentally ill.

It is sooooooooooo intellectually dishonest to lump everyone into one stereotype. I may not care for your morals but I really never thought you'd be that petty or faulty in a debate.

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@Arella Mae,

Quote:

If you don't mind my saying so, for something they have no interest in, they have an awful lot of opinions about that non-entity.

The interest is not in the non-entity, the interest is on the very oppressive burden the belief in the non-entity has on the lives of those who don't believe. Religionists insist that no business be transacted on days they deem holy, they interfer with the lives of those whose sexuality they object to, they interfer in a woman's right to control her own body and reproduction, they interfer in sound scientific education. You complain (justifiably) about Bill's rhetorical style. But your own remarks ignore both that Fresco wasn't talking about god, but those who believe in said god and how that belief impinges on the lives of others--both those who don't believe, and those who cherish a different belief.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Seriously Set, let me ask you something. How in the world does what I believe effect you personally? I can see that kind of statement being made when it comes to those of Fred Phelp's ilk and would be the first to tell you I don't agree with his particular brand of what he calls Christianity.

I kind of see it all as you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. I can tell you why I believe what I do and you can do the same with me. I'm not gonna go all nuts if you disagree with me. IMO that's where the problems come in. Someone just HAS to be right.

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@Arella Mae,

Quote:

I have never killed anyone. I hold down a very stressful and busy job. I drive a vehicle. I take care of my animals. I love my husband. I have a decent IQ. I care about my friends. But, of course, since I believe in God, I am mentally ill.

Your completely irrational belief system open you up to the possibility of being talk into doing crazy things that a person that is more rational is not at risk of.

Similar to running a computer without a fire wall or an anti-virus program and therefore greatly increasing the risk of having the computer taken over.

1 Reply

Hitchens is an active atheist who calls himself an anti-theist. Many, and probably most, atheists are not anti theism or anti most theists, hence most don't go around telling theists what to believe. Saying they do as a generality is a red herring, or maybe a red snapper.

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@Arella Mae,

Well, you're mixing oranges into your apple barrel again. I was just pointing out that actions of some religionists explain why atheists take so much interest in a non-entity. But you've just shifted gears from G (general) to P (personal). I haven't said your beliefs affect me (these days), i was just pointing out why it is reasonable that atheists should pay so much attention to the imaginary friends of others.

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@ossobuco,

No a red SKATE

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Ha!

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@Setanta,

I don't think Arella shifted gears, the line she had originally responded to made the generalisation that a belief in god caused problems for others.
I think she is just trying to point out the intellectual fallacy of such generalisation.
You and I are both aware that it is religious dogmas which cause the problems.
Lots of people quietly maintain a personal belief in a god without anyone being affected by that. The phred phelpses make such an impression, though, all belief gets a bad name.
The quiet theist resents being generalised in that fashion.

1 Reply

@wayne,

I don't know that i agree with that, Wayne. This is the post by Fresco to which she originally responded:

Quote:

No. I think we have discussed this before. Atheists are concerned about the adverse social effects of believing in "a God". They have no interest at all in the the details of what is for them a "non-entity".

AM then stated:

Quote:

If you don't mind my saying so, for something they have no interest in, they have an awful lot of opinions about that non-entity.

So i responded to her to the effect that atheists have good reason to pay so much attention to the non-entity.

I think you are confusing the hateful drivel by that idiot Bill with the source of the discussion between me and AM.

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@Setanta,

That very well could be.
I know your position to be quite different from Bill's.
I entirely disagree with such a statement of what Atheists are concerned about. The guy labels himself an anti theist and then tries to drag the Atheist into his court. He does the same thing with theists, by attributing the adverse effects to god belief, rather than religion where it belongs.

I see now what you mean, Arella started off on the wrong track, then changed to something else.
The original statement says nothing about any interest in the details of an entity; non-entity.

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@wayne,

Personally, as an atheist, i abhor the militant anti-religionists who call themselves atheists. Although religion has started many wars, as i have so often pointed out in these fora, on nearly every occasion, economics or politics ends up trumping religion. The most famous example is Catholic France providing heavy monetary subsidies to keep Protestant Sweden in the Thirty Years War, fighting against Catholic Austria. I am disgusted by the excesses and enormities committed in the name of relgion. That doesn't mean that i automatically assume that, therefore, all religionists are guilty of said enormities and excesses.

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@Setanta,

Yes, I've a lot of respect for you, and your personal mores.
At least on this issue, we are flip sides of the same coin. The true Theist and the true Atheist want the same thing, personal freedom and respect.
I am also disgusted by the excesses commited in the name of religion, that doesn't make all religion guilty.
I struggle, at times to keep the chip off my shoulder in regards to religion.
They probably cause a decent theist more grief than they do an atheist.

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@wayne,

wayne wrote:

They probably cause a decent theist more grief than they do an atheist.

A cogent observation. An atheist clown like Bill doesn't bother me in the least simply because there is no way anyone can reasonably associate me with his hatefulness. How much worse for the theist who wants to defend her belief.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

I think you're a bit farther along in your development than I. Smile

Thanx for the help.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

I have never killed anyone. I hold down a very stressful and busy job. I drive a vehicle. I take care of my animals. I love my husband. I have a decent IQ. I care about my friends. But, of course, since I believe in God, I am mentally ill.

I understand you don't appreciate the implication. But take a step back. Imagine you're talking to a world leader. Imagine you're talking to someone you expect to make informed and rational decisions that effect you. You expect that you should be able to appeal to their reason and then they said...

I have never killed anyone. I hold down a very stressful and busy job. I drive a vehicle. I take care of my animals. I love my husband. I have a decent IQ. I care about my friends. But, of course, since I believe in unicorns, I am mentally ill.

You'd certainly measure their ability to think rationally based on what they accept. I have a hard time believing you would not. Now imagine hearing people with authority citing the belief in unicorns as a foundation for their actions. Would you believe this person to be mentally sane? Seriously.

You may not like the implication, and I understand that, but you don't like the implication because it's directed at your beliefs. If they were someone else's, I suspect you'd recognize them as irrational. Is there more material support for gods than unicorns? The claims for unicorns are far less for that matter. How would a belief in a unicorn be more crazy than the belief in a god? Is your answer simply that it is because it is your belief?

I get that you don't understand why atheists would care about the topic, but there are real and material reasons. In Hitchen's case, and his emphatic use of the term "anti-theist," he has described the difference in simply being that some people who do not believe in god think that if god was real, it might be nice. Hitchens, in his numerous works makes an argument why even wanting such a thing is perverse. So based on his views, you should be able to see why he would care, even if you disagree.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@failures art,

For some of us, a god belief is not irrational at all. It's a simple matter of not believing the wrench tightened the bolt without some power behind it.
What's irrationnal about that?

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@wayne,

Quote:

I am also disgusted by the excesses commited in the name of religion, that doesn't make all religion guilty.

All major religion believes can and have been used to talk people into evil acts and it is not a sane way of looking at the universe and open people up to being control by others in the name of god.

The Islam religion is not evil just irrational and the bulk of it believers are good people however the weakness cause by believing in such nonsense ended up with people being talk into flying aircrafts into buildings shouting god is great as they did so.

Most Christians are good people but the irrational believes mean a constant fight to keep nonsense from being taught in public school systems label as science.

To sum up religions support a framework of irrational believes that tend to results in harmful acts by some of the believers.

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@wayne,

Quote:

For some of us, a god belief is not irrational at all. It's a simple matter of not believing the wrench tightened the bolt without some power behind it.
What's irrationnal about that?

And who created the bolt tightener and by believing in there being a bolt tightener without any evidence other then an emotional need, how does that help our understanding of the bolt or the wrench?

0 Replies

A dying message from Hitchens an American Atheist

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