The Kennedys

I think our founding fathers were very liberal. Ben Franklin, T. Jefferson, and T. Paine were all had a very liberal point of view from what I know of their lives. Liberals want change when they perceive injustice. Liberals are far more likely to shrug and let you go about your beliefs than someone with a conservative point of view. Please stop confusing Liberalism with Communism, there are liberal and conservative Communists. Liberal does not mean you are against individualism. The greatest rebels and artists of the world tended to be Liberals. I'm a Liberal and a far bigger believer of individualism than conservative members of my family who think you should not rock the boat, but rather blend in with crowd and follow the rules. While a Liberal might make you wear a seat belt, a Conservative wants to tell you who you can or can't marry. I would rather have someone care about my safety than my love life.

I also think Roosevelt did a great thing during the Depression. He could have just handed out checks, but instead he allowed people their dignity by creating jobs they were paid to do. They didn't have to take charity or beg, they could go back to work. He created Social Security with the idea that would all have to contribute to the best of ones ability, thus saving many people from dying of hunger or cold in their old age. If you think letting people die from lack of necessities is an expression of Individualism - it is not the type of Individualism I want to be a part of.

I think religion (any religion) is just an easy excuse for committing atrocities. Evil has the same motive no matter who does it, just a different face.

How could a pablum slurper like you, Om, have forgotten that they did it because "they hate our freedoms".

Well said, GW. Those thoughts are so easily overrun by the propaganda.

Yes, but let us keep clearly in mind
that both "conservative" and "liberal" are RELATIVE words,
having no meaning in and of themselves,
but that thay must be understood according to a designated criterion,
from which EITHER there IS or is NOT variation, change or distortion.
IF there is NO change, NO variation, NO distortion,
then one is orthodox or conservative, but
if there IS variation, IS change, or IS distortion, then one is liberal.
Liberals demand wiggle room; conservatives abhor and reject it.
Orthodoxy or variation (liberalism) can exist in relation
to millions of possible criteria.
For example, suppose a painter becomes popular.
Pierre the Painter begins a school, teaching his adored style.
Of 100 students, 75 are inflexibly loyal to the most intensely perfect reproduction,
with NOT the slightest variation nor straying therefrom.
Thay are orthodox or conservative followers of Pierre
(because thay CONSERVE his pure style with NO variation).
23 of the other students believe that Pierre's style woud be BETTER,
if thay apply some improvements of their own, and thay do so.
Those 23 students are LIBERALS as to Pierre's style because thay wanna CHANGE it
and thay vary from it. Another student changes it even MORE than the others;
thus, he is MORE liberal in relation to Pierre's style.
Another student, Jared, says Pierre is a fraud & running a scam.
He turns his back on Pierre and rejects him. He is a radical ("by the root").

The moral of the story is:
"liberal" means CHANGING THE CONCEPT.
We need to understand WHICH concept is being changed
and HOW it is being changed.
Change can happen in many different directions,
some better than others.




You are right, GW, that the Founders were indeed liberals,
because thay varied from and changed the Divine Right of Kings.
Indeed, thay were radicals, turning their backs upon the King of England.





YES; justice is one of the trillions of possible reasons
for desiring CHANGE from something, variation therefrom.





That depends on WHAT is either being varied from or being conserved.





Have I done that, GW ?
I don 't believe that I have fallen into that error.






Yes; u r absolutely right. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were conservative commies,
whereas Boris Yeltsin was a liberal communist, in that he changed the system, varied from it.






Well, Classical Liberalism favored laissez faire capitalism.
That is very different than the variations of Roosevelt and the Kennedys.
Again: it all depends upon WHAT it is that is being changed or varied from,
and in which direction the change is going.
CHANGE can go in ANY direction, and change defines a liberal.





It all depends on WHAT is being changed
and in which direction it is being changed,
or HOW it is being changed.








With all respect, it is imperative and indispensable that we more precisely refine
the concept of WHAT there is, or is NOT variation from,
before we decide what is liberal or conservative;
i.e., WHAT is sought to be changed.
Before we do that, we are disoriented; we need to get our bearings.

WHICH motive is that ?

What is the motive ?