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@contrex,

Yes, i thought it was superfluous,for its sense is already included or implied in the word "exchange".But, as a English learner, i am not sure if it was really a redundant word. So i raised the question here hoping some native speakers can shed some light on it .

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"AN English learner".
You keep using "Chinglish". Is that meant to be the form of English used by Chinese speakers? If so, it's not a commonly used English word--I've never heard it before (though there is a sometimes-used word "Spanglish" for the English with a lot of Spanish words and constructions that bilingual citizens sometimes slip into)

2 Replies

@MontereyJack,

MontereyJack wrote:

You keep using "Chinglish". Is that meant to be the form of English used by Chinese speakers? If so, it's not a commonly used English word--I've never heard it before

MontereyJack may never have heard about it before, but he is (a) very vain and (b) on thin ice if he declares that it must therefore be very uncommon. Chinglish is sufficently well known to have a Wikipedia entry.

Quote:

The English word Chinglish is a portmanteau of Chinese and English. The Chinese equivalent is Zhongshi Yingyu (simplified Chinese: 中式英语; traditional Chinese: 中式英語; pinyin: Zhōngshì Yīngyǔ; literally "Chinese style English").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinglish

MJ will probably be surprised to learn that The Oxford English Dictionary cites the earliest recorded usage of Chinglish (noted as a jocular term) in 1957 and of Chinese English in 1857, and defines the noun and adjective:

Quote:

Chinglish, n. and a. colloq. (freq. depreciative). Brit. /ˈtʃɪŋglɪʃ/, U.S. /ˈtʃɪŋ(g)lɪʃ/. Forms: 19– Chinglish, 19– Chenglish [rare]. [Blend of Chinese n. and English n. Compare earlier Japlish n., Spanglish n. Compare also Hinglish n.2, Singlish n.2] A. n. A mixture of Chinese and English; esp. a variety of English used by speakers of Chinese or in a bilingual Chinese and English context, typically incorporating some Chinese vocabulary or constructions, or English terms specific to a Chinese context. Also: the vocabulary of, or an individual word from, such a variety. Cf. Singlish n.2 B adj. Of or relating to Chinglish; expressed in Chinglish.

One author* divides Chinglish into "instrumental" and "ornamental" categories. "Instrumental Chinglish is actually intended to convey information to English speakers. Ornamental Chinglish is born of the fact that English is the lingua franca of coolness. Meaning aside, any combination of roman letters elevates a commodity – khaki pants, toilet paper, potato chips – to a higher plane of chic by suggesting that the product is geared toward an international audience."

*Abigail Lavin (2008), "Feudal to Translate", Weekly Standard March 31, 2008.

"A guide to the English dialect spoken only in China"

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/902vcjdb.asp

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@MontereyJack,

Thanks. But have you ever heard about the phrase mutual exchange?

1 Reply

@westwind,

Where there is an exchange and the things that are exchanged are equal or viewed as equal by each party to that exchange, we have a mutual exchange, Westwind.

In those cases where an exchange occurs where one party feels that it wasn't fair, but the exchange goes forward for whatever reason, that would not be a mutual exchange. The word 'mutual' is not redundant nor is it superfluous.

"mutual exchange"

NYTimes - 167 results

LA Times - 29 results

1 Reply

@McTag,

Yes, but we also still hear the phrase "surrounded on all sides."

1 Reply

@JTT,

what about the phrase red in color?
The apple is red,or the apple is red in color? Isn't in color redundant?
IMHO, exchange have to happen between at least two people or two sides,and so on, that is to say exchange is mutual.Since the meaning of mutual is already implied in exchange, why should we use mutual to modify exchange when it add nothing to the sentence?
BTW, could you tell me how you got the information of NYTimes - 167 results, so i can check it out myself whenever i come across such phrases as mutual exchange.
Thanks!

1 Reply

@westwind,

Quote:

what about the phrase red in color?
The apple is red,or the apple is red in color? Isn't in color redundant?

What does it matter if it's redundant, Westwind?

In the sentence above, we have two markers for a question, 'does' and a question mark. One is reduandant. We have a second 'it' three words after the first 'it'. That 'it' is redundant. Adding "Westwind" is redundant for everyone knows who I'm addressing.

English, and many other languages, are full of redundancies. That doesn't make them bad or, maybe more importantly, unnatural. English is English and that just what we do, sometimes.

Quote:

IMHO, exchange have to happen between at least two people or two sides,and so on, that is to say exchange is mutual.Since the meaning of mutual is already implied in exchange, why should we use mutual to modify exchange when it add nothing to the sentence?

That's simply not true. Exchanges go on all the time where the parties and the results are not mutually equal. Banks don't give out loans on the borrowers terms.

Quote:

BTW, could you tell me how you got the information of NYTimes - 167 results, so i can check it out myself whenever i come across such phrases as mutual exchange.

Sure. Do you know how to do an "exact phrase" Google search?

1 Reply

@JTT,

I will consider your opinion.
I haven't heard exact phrase google research.Could you show me how to do it?

1 Reply

@westwind,

1. Open to Google.com

2. Click on "Advanced Search".

3. Fill in the box marked "this exact wording or phrase:" with the phrase you want found.

4. Specify "Language:"

5. If you want to search only a particular website, fill in the box marked, "Search within a site or domain:" with the website URL.

6. If you want to check a certain region, such as the UK, the USA, Australia, etc, click on, "Date, usage rights, numeric range, and more", then click on the region you want from the drop down menu.

7. Hit the "Advanced Search" button.

There are some more "tricks" that you can use. "Advanced Search Tips" is located at the top right of the page.

1 Reply

@JTT,

I really appreciate your help, JTT

0 Replies

@JTT,

You really are a dumb ****.
You are really lucky.
what decides the place of the word really in the above two sentences?
thx !

1 Reply

@roger,

Is roger a rogue?

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@westwind,

Quote:

1)You really are a dumb ****.
2)You are really lucky.
what decides the place of the word really in the above two sentences?

In 1) 'really' emphasizes that the person 'is' a dumb ****. It similar to,

You are a dumb ****. OR You are a dumb ****.

If we had,

You are a really dumb ****

it would emphasize 'dumb ****'.

So 2) tells of a situation where you is above the point of lucky, at the stage of really lucky.

1 Reply

@JTT,

So i should say i am really lucky there are members as you who are teaching English as ESL at this forum.
Could i say i really am lucky too? it is kind of odd.
But "you really are lucky" sounds not that odd.

1 Reply

@westwind,

Quote:

So i should say i am really lucky there are members [as] like you who are teaching English as ESL at this forum.

Could i say i really am lucky too? it is kind of odd.
But "you really are lucky" sounds not that odd.

English, like all languages, has a normal neutral, WW. This is the usual, hence 'normal' way to say something when we want to express it in a relatively neutral fashion, ie. not too much emphasis.

Changing the position of adverbs from the normal neutral position can have the effect of 1) changing the meaning, or 2) changing the emphasis. Most often I'd say, it's the latter.

I don't know how much exposure you have had to actual English conversation so I don't know whether your feelings for what's "odd" come as a result of learned grammar or natural spoken English.

All these are natural:

1) I am really lucky there are members [as] like you who are teaching English as ESL at this forum.

2) I really am lucky there are members [as] like ... .

3) You really are lucky there are ... .

Number 1 seems like the normal neutral to me while 2 and 3 seem more emphatic.

Of course, these can all be changed in speech with intonational shifts.

Is "as you ..." also what you were in grammar studies?

1 Reply

@JTT,

should i use such as or like instead of as in this sentence?

1 Reply

@westwind,

Yes, WW.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Li Zicheng (an rebel leader) marched into Beijing in 1644 unopposed.
I thought an adverb, instead of an adjective, should be used in（at ?） the end of the above sentence. Could you tell me why unopposed is used here?
Thanks.

1 Reply

@westwind,

Quote:

Li Zicheng (an rebel leader) marched into Beijing in 1644 unopposed.
I thought an adverb, instead of an adjective, should be used in（at ?） the end of the above sentence. Could you tell me why unopposed is used here?

Your sentence should be
"Li Zicheng, a rebel leader, marched into Beijing in 1644 unopposed."
or alternatively
"...marched unopposed into Beijing in 1644."

"Unopposed" just means that the citizens of the city did not try to prevent him and his followers entering. No fight took place.

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