57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 09:44 pm
@CalamityJane,
holy hell....

Give him a court ordered HIV and std test and take it from there based on the results!
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 09:47 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The US finding European standards for human rights violations to be an "irritant," does not mean that the US finds human rights to be an irritant or has no interest in protecting them.


The facts clearly show otherwise, Finn dMisleader. The US has an abysmal record regarding human rights. Just one example will suffice. The USA trained and funded the Contras. They were responsible for the killing of 40 to 50 thousand innocent men women and children, many of whom suffered brutal torture before they were slain. Torture that was taught right out of CIA torture manuals.

Okay, let's have one more example:

Quote:
America’s Terrorist Training Camp
Posted October 30, 2001
What’s the difference between Al Qaeda and Fort Benning?

By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 30th October 2001

“If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents,” George Bush announced on the day he began bombing Afghanistan, “they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril.” I’m glad he said “any government”, as there’s one which, though it has yet to be identified as a sponsor of terrorism, requires his urgent attention.

For the past 55 years it has been running a terrorist training camp, whose victims massively outnumber the people killed by the attack on New York, the embassy bombings and the other atrocities laid, rightly or wrongly, at Al-Qaeda’s door. The camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, or WHISC. It is based in Fort Benning, Georgia, and it is funded by Mr Bush’s government.

http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2001/10/30/americas-terrorist-training-camp/


[emphasis is mine]

It's a pity that you can't see the facts that show you to be a liar of epic proportions. Typical of so many "heads up their ass" Americans.


0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 09:51 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Your three votes down may come from USers who aren't happy with the eloquent "defences" you offer for the US's numerous crimes.


They are far happier it would seem with your constant attacks on the US.

In any case, I am fairly sure the US is behind the pressure to charge Assange with any crime that can reduce his freedom of movement, just as I am fairly sure that a large numbers of European governments are going along with the US in this matter with special note of Sweden.

To me the best solution would be to lock up the leakier or leakiers for life and tighten up the security of our government computer networks leaving Assange alone for now at least.

Making it far harder for the Assanges of this world get a hold of US secrets in the future. Oh, I would also place US agents over time into all such Wikileaks organizations in fact I would set up a few of my own.

A one time look into our normal handling of international relationships could prove more useful then harmful but it can not be allow to happen again or no other government will be willing to talk to us frankly in the future.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 09:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well, the secret cables only talked about the European human rights standards. I did not suggest that the US finds all human rights irritable
nor was it implied anywhere else.

Yes, Sweden is calling for the extradition of Assange and not the US, however
you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know the mere conduct of overumpeling two women is the main issue here.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 09:57 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

holy hell....

Give him a court ordered HIV and std test and take it from there based on the results!


Right. This could have been done (mandatory due to court order) while
Assange was still in Sweden for an additional 40 days and held for questioning.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:06 pm
@CalamityJane,
In the same issue, the Guardian editors explain their reason for publishing the allegations:

Quote:
It is impossible to make judgments about what happened in private circumstances: that will be for the Swedish courts eventually to decide. But it is wrong that the notion that the allegations are simply a conspiracy or smear should go unexamined. Having been given access to the relevant Swedish police papers – including the womens' claims and Assange's rebuttal – we have felt it right to present a brief summary of the nature of the complaints, together with Assange's response. It is unusual for a sex offence case to be presented outside of the judicial process in such a manner, but then it is unheard of for a defendant, his legal team and supporters to so vehemently and publicly attack women at the heart of a rape case.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:23 pm
@wandeljw,
Wandel, I did not find this passage in the article. Can you pinpoint it, please?
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:25 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
The Guardian understands that the recent Swedish decision to apply for an international arrest warrant followed a decision by Assange to leave Sweden in late September and not return for a scheduled meeting when he was due to be interviewed by the prosecutor. Assange's supporters have denied this, but Assange himself told friends in London that he was supposed to return to Stockholm for a police interview during the week beginning 11 October, and that he had decided to stay away. Prosecution documents seen by the Guardian record that he was due to be interviewed on 14 October.


Dumb decision. Simply dumb, possibly influenced by arrogance.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:29 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The US finding European standards for human rights violations to be an "irritant," does not mean that the US finds human rights to be an irritant or has no interest in protecting them.


Of course it doesn't. Who claimed it does?

Quote:
If there is a material difference between the US and European standards there must be a reason and it doesn't necessarily follow that the reason is the US is less concerned than Europe for human rights.


Right. It can be easily be explained by the concept of having one's cake and eating it too.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:31 pm
Quote:
What are the accusations or charges?

Four were outlined at the hearings:

• That Assange "unlawfully coerced" Miss A by using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

• That he "sexually molested" Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her "express wish" one should be used.

• That he "deliberately molested" Miss A "in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity".

• That he had sex with a second woman, Miss W, without a condom while she was asleep.

None of those mentions rape, so why is Assange being described as an alleged rapist?

The accusation in the fourth point, involving Miss W, falls into the category of rape under Swedish law.

An arrest warrant, issued on 20 August, was withdrawn the following day, when one of Sweden's chief prosecutors, Eva Finné, said she did not think there was "reason to suspect that he has committed rape". On 1 September, Marianne Ny, the Swedish director of prosecutions, overturned Finné's judgment. "Considering information available at present, my judgment is that the classification of the crime is rape," said Ny.


Quote:
What is the Swedish law on rape?

Three categories of rape are defined, with different sentencing guidelines. These were described in court on Thursday by Assange's barrister, Geoffrey Robertson QC, as "severe rape", "normal rape" and "minor rape". While the first carries a maximum 10-year sentence, he said, the last has no minimum sentence. The accusation relating to Assange and Miss W is held to fall into the third category.

Does this mean it would not be a crime under British law?

The charge that he had sex with Miss W while she was asleep would be a clear allegation of rape in this country. Legal experts consider that the third charge would directly correlate to an accusation of indecent assault in Britain.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-q-and-a?intcmp=239
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:33 pm
@JPB,
I thought so too! Had he gone to the hearing, there probably would not
have been an arrest warrant issued.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:37 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Bodice ripper
Meaning
A sexually explicit romantic novel; usually in a historical setting and always with a plot involving the seduction of the heroine.

Origin
These books owe much in style to the work of English romantic novelists like Jane Austen and Emily Bronte. Nevertheless, the term itself is American. The first reference in print is from The New York Times, December 1980:

"Women too have their pornography: Harlequin romances, novels of 'sweet savagery,' - bodice-rippers."

It soon caught on and appears numerous times in the US press from that date onward. Here's an early example, in a story about [then] emerging novelist, Danielle Steel, from the Syracuse Herald Journal, New York, 1983:

"I think of romance novels as kind of bodice rippers, Steel says."

The genre is commercially highly successful, but isn't taken seriously by most literary critics. Most examples are judged by more base criteria than the classic works of Austen or the Brontes. Bodice Rippers are strictly formulaic and the plot usually involves a vulnerable heroine faced with a richer and more powerful male character, whom she initially dislikes. Later, she succumbs to lust and falls into his arms. The formula requires the books to be fat 'page turners', i.e. a plot device, usually a seduction scene, must happen at frequent intervals. Depending on the author or publishing house style, the principal characters must marry. It is virtually obligatory for the cover picture to show the swooning, ample-bosomed heroine.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:47 pm
@CalamityJane,
I'm surprised that there was so little response to your post, Jane.:

Quote:
US officials regard European human rights standards as an "irritant", secret cables show, and have strongly objected to the safeguards which could protect WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange from extradition.

In a confidential cable from the US embassy in Strasbourg, US consul general Vincent Carver criticised the Council of Europe, the most authoritative human-rights body for European countries, for its stance against extraditions to America, as well as secret renditions and prisons used to hold terrorist suspects.


Of course the Council of Europe's position on human rights safeguards effects so many more people than just Julian Assange. For the Council to be treated as an "irritant" by the US government is very disturbing.

Also, of course, we are also talking about the human rights of those who suffered "extraordinary rendition" . (Also the rights of those detained at Guantanamo, in some cases for years without trial.)

I doubt there were too many of us who supported the practice of "extraordinary rendition" at the time it occurred. Personally, I believe that the abduction & torture of "enemy suspects" to other countries where the the laws of our own countries do not apply, was a deeply abhorrent & concerning aspect of "the war against terror".

At the time, our governments (including my own) denied any such "renditions" were actually happening. Of course it is now known that they actually did.

If the Wikileaks expose our governments' complicity in these events, & expose our governments' efforts to silence the critics of these events, then well & good, I say. Our governments should be exposed for such activities. We should know what our governments' actually condoned, despite what they were telling us at the time. Our governments should be held accountable for what they actually did in our names.



BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:49 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
But it is wrong that the notion that the allegations are simply a conspiracy or smear should go unexamined


I can remember hearing Ralph Nader speaking in person of how he needed to live like a Monk as GM had Detectives following him around 24/7 looking for anything in his personal life that they could used to discredit him with.

Assange does not have just one large corporation looking to discredit him but instead a large percents of the total governments on the planet.

Come on now those "charges" and the history of how they had been pursued up to this point does not leave a hell of a lot of room to question that they are nonsense and nothing else.

If he was not at least computer smart I am fairly sure we would now be reading now how his laptop was found to be full of child porn.

0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:53 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
If the Wikileaks expose our governments' complicity in these events, & expose our governments' efforts to silence the critics of these events, then well & good, I say. Our governments should be exposed for such activities. We should know what our governments' actually condoned, despite what they were telling us at the time. Our governments should be held accountable for what they actually did in our names.


Certainly, MsOlga, that's what the editor of the New York Times said as well - and this doesn't apply solely to the United States - any government should be held accountable. In addition, every country should be held accountable if it violates against the Geneva convention.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 10:56 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
Certainly, MsOlga that's what the editor of the New York Times said as well - and this doesn't apply solely to the United States - any government should be held accountable.

Absolutely agree!
( I definitely did not imply that only the US should be held accountable in my post. I hope that's clear?
My own government at the time has a lot to answer for in terms of accountability.)

Quote:
In addition, every country should be held accountable if it violates against the Geneva convention.


Yes, indeed, Jane.
100% agreement here.

Hear, hear!
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 11:01 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
I'm surprised that there was so little response to your post, Jane.:


I think that you will see this more and more as the leaks become more pointed, more relevant to the real serious crimes that have been committed by this cabal of war mongers, Olga.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 11:01 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
In addition, every country should be held accountable if it violates against the Geneva convention.


You know it strange but I do not remember too many times when our soldiers was protected from tortures and other mistreatments because of the Geneva convention.

0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 11:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Apparently the Guardian is convinced that any and all discussion with US officials involves those officials applying pressure on their counterparts.

But then we know all too well how those crafty and duplicitous American diplomats reveal their perfidy in one section of a secret cable but take great pains employing misleading euphemisms in another. Of course, when they wrote "review," they meant "pressure."


Perceptions matter, Finn. Haven't you ever had conversations with someone in authority who spoke through a pasted on smile, but you knew the smile was false and the pressure was real?
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 11:06 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Of course the Council of Europe's position on human rights safeguards effects so many more people than just Julian Assange. For the Council to be treated as an "irritant" by the US government is very disturbing.


The Council isn't being treated as an irritant, msolga. The Council's stance against extraditions to America were criticized. I'm not sure why it's disturbing that America wants to extradite certain individuals and is irritated by those who are putting up roadblocks to those extraditions. Would you not be irritated by someone putting roadblocks in place of something you wanted?
 

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