52
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2017 03:28 am
@Builder,
Whatsoever the reason was that he got that post in the Curia -
you wrote:
Our top Catholic Cardinal George Pell sought sanctuary

- and since
you also wrote:
Asylum seekers seek sanctuary where they can find it.
I've just asked, if he got asylum in Vatican.

(But it could be that you got mixed up with the original, religious meaning of sanctuary.)
Builder
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2017 03:59 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Seeking asylum is seeking sanctuary, Walter.

Maybe it got lost in your translation?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/feb/04/churches-offer-sanctuary-to-asylum-seekers-facing-deportation-to-nauru
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2017 04:11 am
@Builder,
And now you point my attention at a "church asylum" - a person who sought sanctuary in a holy place could not be harmed.
The right to seek asylum in a church or any other holy place was first codified in law by the King Ethelbert of Kent around 600 A. D., but it's no legal right since quite some time anywhere (though generally still observed)

Builder wrote:
Seeking asylum is seeking sanctuary, Walter.


Re 'lost in translation': I'm not at all knowable in Greek, but do know (= still remember) quite a bit of Latin. Besides that, I'm quite knowable in asylum law, too (otherwise I couldn't have worked with/for asylum seekers).

Sanctuary
Catholic Sanctuary

0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  2  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2017 04:31 am
Claiming sanctuary in a church to avoid being punished for a crime was abolished in 1623 in England, I don't know about the other countries of the (now) UK.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2017 05:53 am
@centrox,
Between the 16th and 19th century, state recognition was withdrawn from church asylum in all European countries.
In the 20th century it existed until the beginning of the 1980s, essentially only as a covert protection for opponents and persecuted persons in dictatorships.
Builder
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 02:14 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The Vatican is a nation-state, with its own laws, and its own police.

It's not a church. It's a nation within a nation.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 04:12 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
The Vatican is a nation-state, with its own laws, and its own police.

It's not a church. It's a nation within a nation.
Vatican City State is a country in the sense of a 'sui generis' entity with the Pope - as Bishop of Rome - as the sovereign of the state.

But it is the Holy See that conducts diplomatic relations on its behalf, in addition to the Holy See's own diplomacy, entering into international agreements in its regard. Vatican City thus has no diplomatic service of its own.

The Vatican City State doesn't have an asylum law. (The Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerants was dedicated to the spiritual welfare of migrant and itinerant people - the follower-up institution, the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development, has responsibility for "issues regarding migrants, those in need, the sick, the excluded and marginalized, the imprisoned and the unemployed, as well as victims of armed conflict, natural disasters, and all forms of slavery and torture", but not for asylum within the territories of the state of Vatican City.)

The most recent example that the Vatican doesn't give asylum happened at the Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls (one of the many Vatican's extra-territorial complexes within Rome and Italy) in 2011, when dozens of Roma asked for asylum but were just offered (monetary and spiritual) help but send back to Italian territory.
Builder
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 04:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
So, George Pell hanging there (the Vatican) until he was told to go and face the music in Australia was a sham?

Most people here thought he would did there, rather than face the courts, and his accusers.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2017 05:51 am
@Builder,
Don't you have free movement in Australia?

Again, the Vatican City state doesn't have any asylum law, according to all I've read ... at university but in recent publications as well in the Legge fondamentale dello Stato della Città del Vaticano, too.
But since you mentioned the Fundamental Law of Vatican City State earlier, you certainly can point at my mistake.
Builder
 
  0  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 02:23 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Don't you have free movement in Australia?


Define "free movement", Walter. We don't have the TSA doing cavity searches at every airport, if that's what you mean.

It took about nine calendar months of public outcry to get the Pope to pressure Cardinal Pell to return and face his accusers. The case has been closed to public attendance for whatever reason.

If you have a debt to the ATO or are in arrears on child support payments, you will be stopped at the airport.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 03:44 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
It took about nine calendar months of public outcry to get the Pope to pressure Cardinal Pell to return and face his accusers. The case has been closed to public attendance for whatever reason.
And that was because he got asylum in the Vatican City State?
It's just my personal opinion, but getting asylum in any state and than being send back from the country you left ... well, the idea of asylum has been pushed into absurdity.

However: I still doubt that anybody can/could be granted asylum in the Vatican City State - until you show me a source with the related law (you referred to it earlier).
Builder
 
  0  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Under several centuries of Roman Catholic tradition, the church will not expel anyone who seeks its sanctuary. A spokesman for the State Department's Panama Task Force, Richard Sanders, declined to speculate on what steps the U.S. government might take to bring Noriega to the United States. Fitzwater said the United States "will continue to pursue avenues for bringing General Noriega, now located, to justice." However, his decision to seek asylum in an embassy, particularly a Vatican embassy, may give Noriega a strong hand in any negotiations over his future. "If he wants to stay there forever and ever, he could do it," said Margaret Crahan, a professor of religion and a board member of the Interamerican Institute of Human Rights of the Organization of American States. "It is highly unlikely they {the Vatican} would cooperate to remove him. It is too risky for them to violate the principle of sanctuary." Ironically, the papal nuncio in Panama City has been highly critical of Noriega, and the Vatican legation has provided refuge for Noriega opponents.


source
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:08 am
@Builder,
Fine.
But what about asylum, and here especially in Vatican City State?

It certainly would have been reported somewhere, if an asylum seeker got the third highest job in Catholic church. And even more that the Vatican now changed laws and granted asylum - at least that's what I think.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Dec, 2017 04:18 am
@Walter Hinteler,
If you're simply here to keep moving the goal posts, Walter, I'll bid you adieu.

Those seeking sanctuary are also asylum-seekers. Here's a puzzle for you, Walter. prove that asylum seekers are NOT seeking sanctuary.

Happy New Year, BTW. I'm already hearing fireworks here down under.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Nov, 2018 11:44 am
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/wikileaks-julian-assange-possible-charges-court-filing-1.4908399

Quote:
The U.S. Justice Department inadvertently named Julian Assange in a court filing in an unrelated case, suggesting prosecutors have prepared charges against the WikiLeaks founder under seal.

Assange's name appears twice in an August court filing from a federal prosecutor in Virginia, who was attempting to keep sealed a separate case involving a man accused of coercing a minor for sex.


Quote:
In one sentence, the prosecutor wrote that the charges and arrest warrant "would need to remain sealed until Assange is arrested in connection with the charges in the criminal complaint, and can therefore no longer evade or avoid arrest and extradition in this matter."

In another part of the filing, the prosecutor said that "due to the sophistication of the defendant and the publicity surrounding the case, no other procedure is likely to keep confidential the fact that Assange has been charged."


Quote:
Any charges against Assange could help illuminate the question of whether Russia colluded with the Trump campaign to sway the 2016 presidential election.

It would also suggest that, after years of internal wrangling within the Justice Department, prosecutors have decided to take a more aggressive tack against the secret-sharing website.


Quote:
It was not immediately clear what charges Assange, who has been holed up for years in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, might face.

But recently ousted U.S. attorney general Jeff Sessions last year declared the arrest of Assange a priority. Special counsel Robert Mueller has been investigating whether Trump campaign associates had advance knowledge of Democratic emails that were published by WikiLeaks in the weeks before the 2016 election and that U.S. authorities have said were hacked by Russia.

Any arrest could represent a significant development for Mueller's investigation into whether the Trump campaign colluded with Russia to influence the election.


sniiiip

Quote:
WikiLeaks has attracted U.S. attention since 2010, when it published thousands of military and State Department documents from Army Pvt. Chelsea Manning. In a Twitter post early Friday, WikiLeaks said the "U.S. case against WikiLeaks started in 2010" and expanded to include other disclosures, including by contractor Edward Snowden.

"The prosecutor on the order is not from Mr. Mueller's team and WikiLeaks has never been contacted by anyone from his office," WikiLeaks said.
0 Replies
 
 

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