57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Jun, 2012 11:09 am
@msolga,
Quote:
I think citizens of any country have every right to know what their elected governments are doing on their behalf.


Most sensible citizens don't want to know because they suspect that what is being done on their behalf is stuff they don't wish to be associated with. They get the benefit of it, and I'm assuming life is pretty good where you are, and their hands are clean.

Politics is a dirty business and not for the squeamish.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Jun, 2012 05:19 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Whenever our government is required to jump through US hoops , it jumps.


So the grand democracy of Australia is more than willing to not only sacrifice innocents around the world but also its own citizens.

Even those Australians that don't agree with WikiLeaks should be doing all they can to dump the current government.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jun, 2012 05:27 pm
@JTT,
Not necessarily the citizens of the country, JTT, but yes, both sides of Oz politics jump when required to.
That's just one of the reasons I no longer vote for either of the big two. (Not that I ever voted for the Liberals.)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2012 01:11 am
Quote:

Ecuador recalls London envoy to discuss Assange
Posted June 23, 2012 11:19:33/ABC News

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/3805892-3x4-340x453.jpg
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange Photo: Seeking asylum: Julian Assange (AFP: Leon Neal)

Related Story: Gillard rejects claims she abandoned Assange
Related Story: Assange breaks silence from within embassy
Related Story: In his own words: Julian Assange
Related Story: 'Desperate' Assange seeks asylum in Ecuador
Related Story: Assange faces arrest for breaching bail conditions
Map: England

Ecuador has recalled its ambassador to Britain to discuss what to do about WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.

Mr Assange is about to spend his fourth night at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London as his asylum bid is considered.

He has asked for political asylum as he seeks to avoid extradition to Sweden on sex-abuse allegations and fears Stockholm will turn him over to the United States.

President Rafael Correa says his country will make the final decision on Mr Assange's asylum bid.

"We are calling our ambassador back for consultations because this is a very serious matter," Mr Correa said.

"We are going to proceed cautiously, responsibly and seriously in this case, without bowing to absolutely any pressure."


Ecuadorian envoy Ana Alban met with British authorities on Wednesday.

Mr Correa says they had had a "very courteous communication with the English government on their point of view".

"We will take it into account, but Ecuador will make the final decision," he said.

He says Mr Assange is welcome to stay at the embassy until the matter is resolved. ...<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-23/ecuador-recalls-london-envoy-to-discuss-assange/4088098

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2012 09:47 pm
@msolga,
Ecuador has recalled its ambassador to Britain to discuss what to do about WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.

Now there's a sentence that could cause some degree of consternation among ESLs.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2012 09:51 pm
@msolga,
Come on, Ecuador, stick it, as best you can, to the world's premier predator nation.

An Ecuadorian based WikiLeaks is as good as a WikiLeaks based anywhere.

How come there aren't any Americans or Australians here on this thread defending their countries' actions?
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 12:05 am
@JTT,
Quote:
How come there aren't any Americans or Australians here on this thread defending their countries' actions?


I'm following this case closely, JTT, and I appreciate the effort msolga goes to in her efforts to present the case fairly.

I get the impression that most Aussies don't "connect" with Assange, probably due to the stranglehold that US-sympathisers have on our media. I heard a short reference to Julian's case on Radio National, which is not exactly a popular source in anyone's book here.

The gist of the article was that the "accusations" from two women in Sweden were so obviously trumped, it is surprising that anybody who gave the case even a cursive glance, would walk away laughing at the preposterousness (is that a word??) of the claims.

Anyways, I, for one, am watching, and I, for one, will say that our gov is currently tied up with that old chestnut election-time splitter (groan, not again) same-sex marriage. Oh, and rescuing assylum seekers from sinking ships.

As far as the Aussie gov goes, Assange is on his own.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 06:42 am
@Builder,
Olga does not present the case fairly at all. She simply seeks opportunities to present her virtuous compassionate nature to the world.

She does not face up to the cause but to one of its minor effects.

The cause is the size of the population, it's expectations, it voting for politicians who pander to those expectations and what our enemies get up to.

Assange is on his own because he chose to be. What talent is required to copy, paste and post leaked documents? He's an opportunist who bit off more than he can chew to achieve money and fame the easy way.

Read his Wikipedia entry. An Australian judge let him off a 10 stretch because of his disruptive childhood. And childhoods don't come much more disruptive than Julien's.

I feel sorry for him but not as much as I do for Bradley Manning whose recruitment and posting must be one of the most foolish any authority could have incompetently blundered into.

I think the idea that diplomatic conversations should be transparent would paralyse diplomacy. Attacks on Official Secrets legislation should know where they are leading.

wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 08:39 am
@spendius,
I can easily understand MsOlga's admiration for Assange. When I was a college student I considered Daniel Ellsberg to be a hero.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 10:19 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Read his Wikipedia entry. An Australian judge let him off a 10 stretch because of his disruptive childhood. And childhoods don't come much more disruptive than Julien's.


What's the reason for having let Bush, Cheney, Blair and the rest of the heinous war criminals off, Spendi? Was it their disruptive childhood?

How do thinking, supposedly honest, law abiding people allow this to have happened?

How could a supposedly independent, proud country like the UK have done a whitewashed investigation that pandered to the US?

Quote:
Olga does not present the case fairly at all. She simply seeks opportunities to present her virtuous compassionate nature to the world.


The world needs more virtuous, compassionate people, Spendi. It certainly does NOT need more of these ******* apologists for the war criminals/terrorists that constantly occupy the governments of the US and the UK. [and others]

Quote:
She does not face up to the cause but to one of its minor effects.


What does this babble mean? The cause has been [largely] the US and the UK. There are "enemies" of these two predator nations for one simple reason - because these two nations have been acting like predators.

spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 11:54 am
@JTT,
Quote:
What does this babble mean? The cause has been [largely] the US and the UK.


It means that the cause is the electorate which chose the men you mentioned to run their affairs. And is about to continue with others.

The man who promised to close Gitmo in 100 days has not only not closed it but has extended it and provided it with more power.

The US and the UK can cause nothing. They are abstract concepts. It is government "by" the people isn't it? Mr Bush and Mr Cheney were elected twice and Mr Blair three times.

It's the economy-stupid!! Unless you address that JT you're pissing into the wind.

Quote:
How do thinking, supposedly honest, law abiding people allow this to have happened?


One way is that expressions of virtue and compassion which fail to address the core of the matter provide an impression that something is being done about these things when nothing actually is.

You get, as Olga got the benefits of the coal shipped from China, without seeming to be taking any of the blame.

Your lifestyle, I presume, is that of a predatory culture. The genesis of the US is ethnic cleansing. The NFL is a pure symbolic ritual of predation.



JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 12:50 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
It means that the cause is the electorate which chose the men you mentioned to run their affairs.


These people, the electorate, don't much fancy being accused of supporting the equivalent, in degree, of a Hitler or a Pol Pot.

Quote:
The man who promised to close Gitmo in 100 days has not only not closed it but has extended it and provided it with more power.


Yes, I've addressed this directly a number of times. As I've mentioned, even jebus himself would become a war criminal, a terrorist, if he was elected as prez of the US.

That, of course, also follows for poodles like Blair.

Quote:
It is government "by" the people isn't it?


No, it most surely is not. If it ever was, it was extremely limited in time and scope. You get these idiots arguing about this and that about Obama or Romney as if they have some degree of choice in this. As that astute Russian said, the only difference between US propaganda and the old Soviet propaganda is that most Americans believe theirs.

Now, to be honest, I don't hold out much hope for the US to ever put in a person with enough fortitude and honesty to address these issues straight on. The pool of honesty in the population as a whole just doesn't seem to run much deeper than a stagnant slough.

Quote:
It's the economy-stupid!! Unless you address that JT you're pissing into the wind.


As it is for organized crime but there's not too much support for letting them run their illicit games.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 12:56 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
The genesis of the US is ethnic cleansing.


Certainly, the US has been guilty of that. And it hasn't stopped. But it's predicated more on simply stealing others wealth.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 04:33 pm
What is being avoided in this discussion is exactly that which is being avoided in the mainstream (corporate-owned) media. The exposure of fraud to the highest levels of government.

Let's focus instead on capitalism and who benefits, or Julian's troubled childhood ( I could fill several paragraphs on Bush jnr's, but that would be more obfuscation), or the sub-plot of the NFL, or some hashed up Swedish sex scandal, or whatever else you want to use to beat around the bush with.

The fact remains, that in a country of several hundred million people, why is it that criminals and dullards end up at the top of the tree? This has been the case for decades, probably longer, but we don't need to go back any further than is obvious. Nixon was in bed with the mafia. How does that happen in a country with so many people employed to make sure that kind of thing never occurrs?

I'll give you a hint; corruption, of the highest order, to the highest levels of government, hidden by a media owned and edited by corrupt leaders, in bed with, (these days, in control of) the politicians. I'm guessing that some Presidents actually make it to the top before finding out just how bad things really are, and if they don't toe the line, they don't live very long.

Care to get back to this, the real story that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole? Hmmm?
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 04:52 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
I can easily understand MsOlga's admiration for Assange. When I was a college student I considered Daniel Ellsberg to be a hero.


Whatever happened to you, JW?

Anyone, that's anyone, they don't have to be rocket scientists or particularly admirable souls, who exposes the criminal behavior of whatever countries' corrupt and venal leaders is a saint, a citizen without parallel.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 05:02 pm
@Builder,
I'm avoiding nothing.

Tell me what you think I am avoiding.

I don't accept that criminals and dullards end up at the top of the tree but if I did the answer to your question is that the voters are suspicious of honest John righteous unless he's crucified before getting power.

The real story is that you live in a world where corruption and fraud are necessary.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 06:29 pm
@spendius,
You are obviously off on one of your rants, spendius ....
To get back to the subject, my position on Wikileaks & Julian Assange is pretty clear from what I've posted to this thread, I think.:

- I support the work of Wikileaks, including Julian Assange's & Bradley Manning's parts in that work. I believe that if the NYT, Guardian, etc, had been the initial recipient/s of those leaks they would have published much the same information which they received from Wikileaks

-I think that the US government's response to both Julian Assange & Bradley Manning have been way out of proportion to what they actually did.
I believe that Bradley Manning is a political prisoner who has been treated appalling by his own government "to make an example" of him, for political purposes. How can a year in solitary confinement, while awaiting trial, be in any way justified?

-I believe the US would like to do exactly the same to Julian Assange, if they can get their hands on him.

-As to the "rape allegations" in Sweden. (No charges as yet) I still cannot understand why the Swedish government, who allowed him to leave the country (after he waited for 15 days in Sweden to oblige them) could not have requested that the British government allow them to interview to Julian Assange while he was under house arrest.

-I understand that he lost his supreme court case ( to not be extradited to Sweden) on the basis of technical interpretations of European laws about such matters. I understand those same laws have been the subject of considerable controversy before they applied to Julian Assange.

-I can understand perfectly well why Julian Assange would not want to return to Sweden to answer prosecution questions, which would require that he be jailed while obliging.
Given Sweden's history of obliging the US on extradition matters (like handing over its own citizens for extraordinary rendition), that is perfectly understandable, in my opinion.

-Even though "rape trials" in Sweden (if he is found to have a case to answer) are held behind closed doors, I can understand why he (or anyone else) might believe that this is unacceptable. There would be no allowable scrutiny of the proceedings by any of us.

-I absolutely do not accept the Australian government's claim that has done "all it can" to assist Julian Assange. Which is its obligation, to any Australian citizen in trouble abroad. In fact there's been quite a history of my government doing quite the opposite, to oblige the US. (Including a federal police investigation at government request - at around same the time our then attorney-general declared Julian Assange was "not welcome" to return to Australia - which found that Julian Assange had broken no Australian law.

-I absolutely do not believe the assurances of the US ambassador to Australia that the US is not interested in extraditing him from Sweden to face charges in the US. Read the leaks Strafor emails for details.:

Quote:
UNITED STATES prosecutors have drawn up secret charges against the WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, according to a confidential email obtained from the private US intelligence company Stratfor.

In an internal email to Stratfor analysts on January 26 last year, the vice-president of intelligence, Fred Burton, responded to a media report concerning US investigations targeting WikiLeaks with the comment: ''We have a sealed indictment on Assange.''

He underlined the sensitivity of the information - apparently obtained from a US government source - with warnings to ''Pls [please] protect'' and ''Not for pub[lication]'' ..<cont>.


Revealed: US plans to charge Assange :
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/revealed-us-plans-to-charge-assange-20120228-1u14o.html

2012 Stratfor email leak:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Stratfor_email_leak

-Finally, I do not believe that (if it comes to it) that Julian Assange can possibly receive a fair trial for "rape charges". Every single report I have read about the charges connects him to Wikileaks. This is seen as a trial of "the leader Of Wikileaks" & that's how it's been presented in all of the many media reports I've read. I have absolutely no doubt that if it wasn't "the leader of Wikileaks" this issue would have vanished from the pages of our newspapers long ago.

OK, so there you have it in a (rather long! Wink ) nutshell, spendius.
If you want to comment on what I've actually written, fine. No problem.
But do me a favour ... I would really appreciate it if you didn't waffle on about what you imagine my thinking might be. And don't put words into my mouth, OK?

......
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 06:32 pm
Now can we talk about Wikileaks & not me? Wink
Thank you.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2012 07:14 pm
@Builder,
Quote:
What is being avoided in this discussion is exactly that which is being avoided in the mainstream (corporate-owned) media. The exposure of fraud to the highest levels of government. ....

.... Care to get back to this, the real story that nobody wants to touch with a ten foot pole? Hmmm?

Well I'd have no problem at all about that, Builder.
Go right ahead!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2012 03:28 pm
Quote:
Celebrities back Assange's asylum bid
By correspondent Lisa Millar, staff/ABC News
Updated June 26, 2012 05:53:03


A group of high-profile Americans, including filmmaker Michael Moore and author Naomi Wolf, have signed a letter of support for Julian Assange's asylum bid.

The WikiLeaks founder is still holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London seeking political asylum.

He is seeking to avoid extradition to Sweden to face questioning on sex abuse allegations.

Supporters delivered a letter urging Ecuador to grant his request because they believe he faces the threat of persecution in the US if he is extradited to Sweden. .... <cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-26/high-profile-americans-back-assanges-asylum-bid/4092192
 

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