12
   

I learned something new at school today

 
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 05:47 pm
@aidan,
I guess the downside is that it's a stupid waste of time.

I think our schools are suffering because of these tests. I'm inclined to protest. Like max, my first instinct was "screw the test".

He hasn't said he doesn't want to take the test -- he doesn't know that not taking the test is an option.

You don't learn about what he knows. You learn about what has been crammed into his short term memory without context.

David and max suggested I talk to Mo and let him decide. That's what I'm going to do. Like max said -- it doesn't make a bit of difference one way or the other.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 05:52 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
what if that is what Mo wants to do right now?


I hear you.

Fitting in is important.

But I hope that he becomes someone who does not feel that he has to follow popular opinion just because it's popular.

I don't think these tests are good for children. Aren't parents supposed to help protect their kids from things they don't think are good for them -- even if they're popular things amongst some people?

Isn't it better to send that message while he's young instead of waiting until he's a teenager?

If so, then this is a win-win situation.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:29 pm
I read through this thread, then let it sit for a while and then read it all the way through again. I don't get the objection to the test. If you want to know the temperature outside, you can guess or you can go out and measure it. If you want to understand how your school system is meeting the needs of students, you test the students to see how they are doing. Is it possible to misuse the results? Sure. Is that a given? Absolutely not. Many of the arguments shaping modern education come from studying comparative results generated from testing. If you want to understand the impact of funding ,family income, racial mix, teacher education level, geographic location or quality of facilities on education you need real data and you can only get real data from testing. Given that your child does not seem to object to taking the test nor did you mention any anxiety on his part, I don't understand why you are so concerned. Honest question: what do you see as the benefit of a school system where there is no testing?
NAACP
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 11:31 pm
@boomerang,
Your post is pointless and talking about whatever the **** you're trying to achieve will accomplish nothing. Go masturbate.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 12:12 am
@engineer,
The objection is that testing is not a valid scientific measurement of education, or of anything meaningful that resembles education. The results are bogus.

In this way, you are mistaken to compare testing to a valid measurement like temperature. When you measure temperature, it has a well known and relevant scientific meaning. Something that is measured to have a high temperature is always "hot". A temperature reading can reliably indicate how well a given process heats a system.

Education testing is not anything like this. People can be well educated and do poorly on the test. People can be poorly educated and do well on the test. These tests don't indicate how well a process is serving a group of children.

Data for data's sake is worse than meaningless. It is misleading. The process that should be focused on what is best for the student's education instead is focusing on optimizing on a bogus metric.

The idea that educational testing represents some magic "thermometer" that tells us when students are cooked, ummm educated, isn't science.


aidan
 
  5  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:11 am
@boomerang,
Quote:
You don't learn about what he knows. You learn about what has been crammed into his short term memory without context.


This sounds to me like the real problem you have is with the teaching methods as opposed to the test- even if they're in place because of the test.

And if that's the case, I'd have him opt out of the public school system he's in, if you truly think that all that's happening in his academic day is him sitting there having information he'll be tested on crammed down his throat for him to regurgitate and forget tomorrow.

I'm just curious to know whether or not you believe that something has got to make it into the short-term memory before it can be fully integrated, in other words 'learned' and stored in the long-term memory to be recalled and applied and manifested in a demonstrable skill-set.

And I think it's bullshit that someone who hasn't at least made inroads toward learning something can somehow look as if they have-you didn't say that - Max did when he said, 'People who are educated can look uneducated (okay --that may be true) and people who aren't educated can look educated'...that's crap.
In fourth grade if a kid doesn't have basic math skills - they're not gonna be able to pull it out of their hat for one day on a standardized test.

And I think these tests can definitely be an indication of what a child has or hasn't at least made inroads toward learning.

I took aptitude testing in fifth grade that placed my verbal ability in the 99th percentile and my mechanical ability at the 19th. And that's an accurate representation of my particular and individual skill-set- to this day.
Should my parents have said, 'Oh - she sucks at applied mechanics - don't make her take a test that's going to show her what she isn't good at, and might need to apply more effort in if she ever wants to succeed in that area...'

And with whom are these tests 'popular'? How, in any way, shape, or form could someone see taking a standardized test as a 'popular' option?
It's a fact of life for school children - like paying taxes is a fact of life for them when they become adults.

I don't know - you talk all the time about Mo being different and you not wanting him to feel different - how is this going to make him feel anything but different?

I wouldn't teach my children to rebel for the sake of rebelling. I'd teach them that if they aren't getting a good education in the place where they're at - they need to go somewhere else.
In fact, that's what I did teach them - my kids were in a private school for three years in one place we lived, because I wasn't happy with the education they'd have gotten in another school.

It sounds to me as if you're using this test as a means to protest against the school. If you're so unhappy with it, why is Mo still there?



I don't get it.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:20 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Reading around I've discovered that there is a real grassroots movement for opting out as a way to end NCLB testing.
They advise that parents opt out their kids as "conscientious objectors" to the testing.

Schools don't want kids to opt out because if more than 5% of them do the school is said to not be meeting it's AYP (adequate yearly progress) and if they don't meet AYP they miss out on federal funds. That's why parents aren't told about the option.
That 's CORRUPTION -- not a lot different in principle than bribery.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:25 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
But he would not be breaking the rules by not taking the test.

The rule says he doesn't have to take the test.
We might remember that (if its a public school)
the "rules" are made by Mo 's employees (and Mo is also their landlord).





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:31 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Quote:
what if that is what Mo wants to do right now?


I hear you.

Fitting in is important.

But I hope that he becomes someone who does not feel that he has to follow popular opinion just because it's popular.

I don't think these tests are good for children.
Aren't parents supposed to help protect their kids from things they don't think are good for them --
even if they're popular things amongst some people?
Do u see a danger in the test ?
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:35 am
@OmSigDAVID,
And so David - how is the school supposed to meet the needs of our children if their funding is cut?
And who will be yelling the loudest when the children don't get what they need because the funding for the school has been cut?
I'll tell you who - the PARENTS WHO HAD THEIR CHILDREN OPT OUT OF THE TESTING and CAUSED THE FUNDING TO BE CUT!!!

Do you guys really think that people go into education to make life miserable for students and parents?
Is there not even a little shred of you that believes that the people working in the school might be trying to do the best they can within a system that has been made just as difficult for them in terms of doing their job as it's been made for the students?

Jesus - if I cared about my public school and took advantage of all it had to offer my child, and I had a child who could pass the test, no problem and help that school - what skin off my nose is it to have the kid take the test and make a positive contribution?

And again - if you don't like the education your kid is getting - do something constructive to help or make a change.
Or yeah - get the school's funding cut for the next couple of years and damage the chance for a decent education for ALL the children in that school until your protest bears fruit-when your kid won't benefit from it anymore anyway.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:41 am
@aidan,
I suspect that public school students
don 't get the proper respect that thay shoud, from their employees.





David
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:45 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Yeah well, respect is a two way street.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 02:49 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Yeah well, respect is a two way street.
If thay don 't like the job, thay can go elsewhere.
Butrflynet
 
  0  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 03:07 am
@NAACP,
http://www.java2s.com/Tutorial/JavaImages/MessageBoxWorkingIconAbortRetryIgnoreButton.PNG

http://blog.apxalarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/IgnoreButton.jpg
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  3  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 03:10 am
@OmSigDAVID,
This thread is not about people who don't like the job - or at least not as I've been reading it.
It's about people who don't like the requirements or suggested activities of a particular environment.

I haven't read anything about teachers being disrespectful to anyone on this thread.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

And as far as the testing goes - it was mandated by the government 'we the people' (and specifically YOU and not ME) elected.

I have to say that on a day to day basis - I've seen a lot of reciprocal respect in the schools I have observed.
It's more common than not.

And if there is disrespect, disrespect on the part of the teacher toward the student is much less common than disrespect on the part of the student toward the teacher. That happens every single day, several times a day...yet a lot of teachers stay. Why? Because they love to teach, and they understand children are children.
But parents who advocate and instill a disrespectful attitude toward teachers, their school and its methods and requirements by their constant criticism and undermining aren't helping anyone - their children would be much better served by being put into an environment in which they (the parents) felt their needs were being served appropriately.

I don't know why anyone has to disrespect anyone. And truthfully - I've never viewed it or seen it as being such a negative situation.
Maybe I was just lucky- or maybe my expectations were reasonable- and I gave my childrens' teachers the benefit of the doubt - that they were doing the best they could.

And when I didn't think that was true - I got the situation changed.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 08:48 am
@aidan,
I have a lot of respect for Mo's teachers and Mo knows that. In fact, I respect them so much that I stand behind them in opposition to this type of testing. I think teachers have a lot more respect for kids than their parents do, in most cases.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 08:59 am
@aidan,
Quote:
This sounds to me like the real problem you have is with the teaching methods as opposed to the test- even if they're in place because of the test.


I said exactly this at the beginning of this thread. High stakes testing has changed the way teachers are able to teach and what they can teach and I think this short changes our kids. So, to answer David's question, yes, I do think the tests are dangerous.

Quote:
I'm just curious to know whether or not you believe that something has got to make it into the short-term memory before it can be fully integrated, in other words 'learned' and stored in the long-term memory to be recalled and applied and manifested in a demonstrable skill-set.


Sure it does. But when a concept is taught out of any context it leaves the short term memory before any real connections are made.

Quote:
And I think these tests can definitely be an indication of what a child has or hasn't at least made inroads toward learning.


I disagree. And so do most people who have studied the issue. They say the test measures the "size of the house" in the district:

Quote:
A study of math scores on the 1992 National Assessment of Educational Progress found that the combination of four variables unrelated to instruction (number of parents living at home, parents’ educational background, type of community [e.g., “disadvantaged urban,” “extreme rural”], and state poverty rate) explained a whopping 89 percent of the differences in state scores. In fact, one of those variables, the number of students who had one parent living at home, accounted for 71 percent of the variance all by itself. See Glen E. Robinson and David P. Brandon, NAEP Test Scores: Should They Be Used to Compare and Rank State Educational Quality? (Arlington, Va.: Educational Research Service, 1994). The same pattern holds within states. In Massachusetts, five factors explained 90 percent of the variance in scores on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) exam, leading a researcher to conclude that students’ performance “has almost everything to do with parental socioeconomic backgrounds and less to do with teachers, curricula, or what the children learned in the classroom. ” See Kevin J. Clancy, “Making More Sense of MCAS Scores,” Boston Globe, 24 April 2000, p. A19. Another study looked just at the poverty level in each of 593 districts in Ohio and found a .80 correlation with 1997 scores on that state’s proficiency test, meaning that this measure alone explained nearly two-thirds of the differences in test results. See Randy L. Hoover, “Forces and Factors Affecting Ohio Proficiency Test Performance,” available at http://cc.ysu.edu/~rlhoover/OPT. Even a quick look at the grades given to Florida schools under that state’s new rating system found that “no school where less than 10% of the students qualify for free lunch scored below a C, and no school where more than 80% of the students qualify scored above a C.” See Jodi Wilgoren, “Florida’s Vouchers a Spur to Two Schools Left Behind,” New York Times, 14 March 2000, p. A18. Then there is the SAT, which, far from being a measure of merit (sometimes pointedly contrasted with affirmative action criteria), is largely a measure of family income. Break down the test takers by income, measured in $10,000 increments, and without exception the scores rise with each jump in parents’ earnings. See “1999 College Bound Seniors’ Test Scores: SAT,” FairTest Examiner, Fall 1999, p. 13; the information is also available at www.collegeboard.org.


Quote:
I don't know - you talk all the time about Mo being different and you not wanting him to feel different - how is this going to make him feel anything but different?


I don't want Mo to feel bad about being different. He is different. Taking a test isn't going to change that.

Quote:
It sounds to me as if you're using this test as a means to protest against the school. If you're so unhappy with it, why is Mo still there?


He's mostly still there because I don't have $16,000 a year to send him to a private school that would work for him.

And

I'm not using the test for anything other than a point of discussion.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 09:04 am
@engineer,
We had a whole thread about my objections so I don't really want to rehash them here.

I see a benefit in that things that aren't tested would be given a greater amout of time -- science, current events, geography, art, music, athletics.

I'm not against testing, just this kind of high stakes, standardized testing. Give them all the math quizes and spelling tests you want. The teacher who designed the cirriculum should design the test.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 09:10 am
@boomerang,
Do teachers design their curricula? Not here. It's designed by a curriculum committee at the district level.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Nov, 2010 09:24 am
@JPB,
I know that there are certain benchmarks that have to be met but I believe the teacher has some lattitude in how they're reached.
0 Replies
 
 

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