7
   

Aetheists know more about religion

 
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 04:49 am
@Thomas,
I agree with Joe. It is a wise decision. Pity you have rescinded it so quickly and thus proved you didn't mean it.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 05:12 am
I posit that atheists are more questioning than theists and know more about pretty much everything.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 05:14 am
@Eorl,
Do you know what a "posit" is in England?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 05:16 am
@Eorl,
I don't know that i'd agree with that. I've known some pig-ignorant atheists. I suspect that the important consideration is that someone who is inquisitive, but is dedicated to a dogma (religion, politics--it doesn't matter what dogma) would tend to ignore any information they obtain which conflicts or just even seems to conflict with the cherished dogma.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 05:28 am
@Setanta,
Setanta has had me on Ignore. So has farmerman. I suspect ros has but with enough sense not to reveal it.

So those three justify others doing the same. But I read all posts on threads I'm on so I prove Setanta wrong. I know he said "tend" but that's make-up. It means he want to give an impression of having said something but has used a verbal trick to escape being held to account.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 08:30 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
By your definition of "wise", needless to say.

Nah, I'll leave that definition to Messrs. Merriam and Webster -- so much better than actually thinking for myself.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 08:42 am
@kuvasz,
kuvasz wrote:
The Resurrection of Jesus is the first and only time in human history that a person rose from the dead


I'm looking for sources but I don't think this is true. I know there are many instances where Christianity has been accused of borrowing from pagan beliefs and I think this is one of them. I don't see it so much as "borrowing" but as typical of early faith traditions.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 09:30 am
@kuvasz,
Quote:
Salvation is due to accepting the divinity of Jesus. That's how Jesus does it; by being a part of the Godhead.


That's one of various Christian theologies and the one that won out at that First Council of Nicaea. The presbyter Arius rejected the idea of the Trinity as what was to become the orthodox view held it to be, that the Son has an equal position with the Father in regard to divinity. His view was declared to be heretical by an overwhelming majority at that council.

Quote:
Orthodox Christianity, dating from First Council of Nicaea in 325 requires that one accept the divinity of Jesus, with the divinity illustrated by the Resurrection. This is what has been considered the integral part of the theology for seventeen hundred years, and is what Christians have in common with other Christians throughout that span.


More precisely, that is what has been considered the integral part of the orthodox theology for seventeen hundred years, and is what orthodox Christians have in common with other orthodox Christians throughout that span.

Quote:
btw; Joe is correct. The only people who followed the teaching of Jesus yet denied his divinity and Resurrection were considered heretics, not real Christians, throughout most of Christian history.


And yet, "heretical" Christianity, like Arian Christianity, continued on throughout many of those centuries, especially among the Germanic tribes that were to conquer and invade most parts of the Roman Empire until their eventual conversion to Nicean Christianity, and the Arian idea of the Son's subordinate position relative to the Father's carries on to this day in the theologies of Christian churches like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It's risible that some people excoriate those atheist who are ignorant of these theological debates ("is Jesus of the same essence as the Father?") of the religious that amount to arguments over the question of how many angels can sit on the head of a pin, where argumenta ad populum can actually decide "right" and "wrong." Simply, these atheists couldn't be bothered by such absurdities.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 09:34 am
@JPB,
Heh, ironically, it was through Paul's Usurpation that Christianity survived at all, and didn't end up a footnote in the history of Judaic religion.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 09:43 am
@InfraBlue,
Well, I agree that it was due to Paul, but I don't agree that his "take" was necessary. Paul was a bullhorn looking for a cause. He persecuted the early Jewish Christians and then persecuted the gentiles into taking up his cause. The Council of Nicaea, as you and Kuvasz both indicate, was a push to, once and for all, come to a consensus on Paul's version versus Arius'. If not for Paul's... er... strong personality and persuasiveness, I don't think his version would have had nearly the teeth it had going in.

I do think the Gnostic Christians, Arian Christians, and Jewish Christians could have flourished without him.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 09:48 am
@JPB,
Well, it's hard to find an online source without a mission but I've got a couple examples that state (and then attempt to discount) previous resurrection myths.

Quote:
Resurrection occurs on different planes. Some resurrections are of the physical body, brought back to life, indistinguishable to the life it had prior to its death. Other resurrections are symbolic, not of a physical body, but of a ghost body arising after the death of a person's body of flesh. Additionally, some reserve the resurrection as denoting a final and permanent unification which cannot be undone, much like the Resurrection of Jesus.

While the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the foundational beliefs of Christianity, accounts of other resurrections also figure in religion, myth, and fable.

Examples of a resurrected deity are Syrian and Greek worship of Adonis; Egyptian worship of Osiris; the Babylonian story of Tammuz; and rural religious belief in the Corn King. More


and

This site which discusses many examples and then says, "So what?". The second one is dealing specifically with the "borrowing" aspect, as if that would be a bad thing. Again, I don't think it's bad, but typical.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 09:51 am
@InfraBlue,
As one of what the god squad call an atheist, i'd like to point out that i've long been aware of these controversies--and in fact, knew of them before i had even given conscious consideration to the question of whether or not any gods exist.

You mention the opinion of the council at Nicaea. That council was not unanimous initially in the notion that the putative Jesus was divine. In fact, Eusebius, who was given the task of writing the creed, was sympathetic to Arius, and only reluctantly agreed to the task, refusing to completely endorse it even when it was finally written.

Addiitonally, the "barbarians" who were Arians--largely the Visigoths and Vandals--set up the kingdoms in North Africa, which continued in what orthodoxy called heresy until they had been overrun by the Muslim holy warriors after the death of Mohammed. They didn't suddenly decide at some point to adhere to the Nicene creed.

And Nicaea didn't put the issue to rest forever in the rest of the christian world, either. The Italian Anabaptists in the 16th century widely differed in their christology, but a great many, and possibly a majority, rejected the divinity of the putative Jesus. The Socinians derived from them, and many of the Socinians did not believe in the divinity of the putative Jesus, either. The Racovian catechism, drawn up among a minority Protestant sect in Poland in the late 16th century, and published there at the dawn of the 17th century, held that your boy Jesus was not co-eternal with god.

Despite the propaganda of the various Orthodox and Catholic churches (were you even aware that there is and long has been more than one Orthodox and more than one Catholic church?), the issue of christology was not settled at Nicaea in 325 CE.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 09:53 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Setanta has had me on Ignore.


nahhh. He ignores you. He doesn't have you on ignore.

I can see your posts if I log into A2K through his account. You're there. Overlooked and disdained, but there.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 09:54 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
And yet, "heretical" Christianity, like Arian Christianity, continued on throughout many of those centuries, especially among the Germanic tribes that were to conquer and invade most parts of the Roman Empire until their eventual conversion to Nicean Christianity, and the Arian idea of the Son's subordinate position relative to the Father's carries on to this day in the theologies of Christian churches like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and Jehovah’s Witnesses.


There were also the European Unitarians like Michael Servetus who, after a pretty interesting attempt to fight the mighty fight in the mid-16th century, was burned as a heretic.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:10 am
@JPB,
I don't know that there is really a conflict between Paulian, Gnostic and Arian Christianity. It was Paul's version that ended up as part of the orthodox canon of the bible. The Gnostics', and Arians' didn't. In terms of chronology Paul's version trumps them. His was only, at most, a generation after the fact. I'm not quite certain about the dating of the earliest Gnostic writings, but they seem to have been written quite some time later. Arius' version came about two and a half c's later, or so. If it wasn't for Paul's clarion call, I doubt there would have been a Gnostic Christianity, and Arius may well have been a pagan. The way I understand it, the first Great Schism was between Paulian and "Jewish" Christianity, as it was championed by Peter and his desire to keep it kosher, with Paul and Peter generally agreeing to disagree, and each going their own way.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:27 am
@Setanta,
Far from belonging to what you refer to as "the god squad," there are atheists here who excoriate other atheists for their ignorance of these theological debates about Jesus.

This is in all likelihood merely a glib expression of yours, but Jesus is not my boy. In speaking about him, he is as much my boy as he is yours.

Quote:
(were you even aware that there is and long has been more than one Orthodox and more than one Catholic church?)

Yep, I was aware of that, thank you very much for asking.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:36 am
@InfraBlue,
"Your boy" is merely a figure of speech--however, if you enjoy getting your panties in a twist over nothing, help yourself.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:39 am
Whether one speaks of what Paul allegedly wrote, or what is now taken as the orthodox canon of the "testaments," there is no surviving text for these documents any older than the late third century. Anyone wishing to inform him- or herself on these matters is advised to look up Origen of Alexandria, who was responsible for the choice of the contemporary "orthodox" canon. I put orthodox in quote marks simply to distinguish the word from the Orthodox establishment.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:42 am
This is the best online source for early christian writings that i have seen.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2010 10:46 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
. He doesn't have you on ignore.


I didn't say he does Beth. I said that he "has had". Or he said he had. If he has taken me off Ignore in order to be able to say he hasn't got me on it, now, and instead scrolls my posts then it is just the same only it's just ignore rather than Ignore. The result is the same and the reason is the same.

It's odd though you quoting me and in the selfsame post asserting that I'm "overlooked and disdained." The essence of "disdain" is to think something unworthy of notice. I never allow myself to indulge my ego to that extent. It is tantamount to putting your own blinkers on. It's snobbish.

Anyway--it is men's locker room stuff here and you shouldn't be sneaking in. Men don't argue with each other in front of their wives. If I know you are reading I will refrain from engaging with him except for the usual pleasantries such as "Hiya Settie--how's it going mate?"
0 Replies
 
 

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