7
   

Aetheists know more about religion

 
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 08:29 pm
Two things:
From Sojourners:
"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."

- Abraham Lincoln

-and-

What if Jesus hates what is done in his name and what he and his father have abandoned this third star from Sol?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 10:42 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
So what? Nobody buys all teachings of Jesus Christ. That would be logically impossible, seeing that some of them contradict each other.

A lot of Christians would disagree with you.

Thomas wrote:
"Being a Christian", then, has to be a matter of degree. Some people are more Christian than others.

Not according to your definition. The fine folks at Merriam-Webster, remember, didn't allow for a Christian to be the follower of some of the teachings of Jesus.

Thomas wrote:
I will admit that Islam, as reflected in the Quran, doesn't endorse all of Jesus's teachings either. But it's still pretty darn Christian.

Once you've been forced to admit that Islam is "pretty darn Christian," you've pretty much backed yourself into such a logical corner that you might as well just give up.

Thomas wrote:
By the way: That Jesus's divinity is among the teachings Islam isn't buying doesn't concern me much. And why should it? I'm not the one claiming that believing in Jesus's divinity is essential to being a Christian.

Like I said, if all of Jesus's teachings are fungible, so that one is just the same as the next, then I suppose you could say that all that son-of-god business should be of little concern to Muslims. I'd just add that virtually all Muslims would disagree with you, but I suppose that's one of those doctrinal issues that isn't important, at least on a definitional level.
saab
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2010 11:15 pm
@joefromchicago,
So what? Nobody buys all teachings of Jesus Christ. That would be logically impossible, seeing that some of them contradict each other.


A lot of Christians would disagree with you.

___________________________________________

I agree with Thomas.
There are around 10 000 religions on earth and one of those is Christianity and Christianity is divided up in several thousand s of different denominations.
Why are there that many? Simply because people read and understand the Bible in different ways. There are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, sects and free churches, Reformed churches the list is endless,
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 08:35 am
@saab,
saab wrote:
I agree with Thomas.

Then you'd be just as wrong as he is.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 09:19 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Thomas wrote:
So what? Nobody buys all teachings of Jesus Christ. That would be logically impossible, seeing that some of them contradict each other.

A lot of Christians would disagree with you.

That's because a lot of Christians are using definitional quibbles as a leverage for emotional blackmail: "If you don't believe what we believe, then you're not a true Christian." I refuse to play this game. Indeed, because I'm not a Christian, I couldn't play it if I wanted to. Nor do I have any interest in the precise definition of what constitutes a Christian. The vague definitions implied by standard American usage, as spelled out in mainstream dictionaries, are perfectly sufficient for me.

joefromchicago wrote:
Thomas wrote:
"Being a Christian", then, has to be a matter of degree. Some people are more Christian than others.

Not according to your definition. The fine folks at Merriam-Webster, remember, didn't allow for a Christian to be the follower of some of the teachings of Jesus.

They didn't prohibit it, either. And nothing about standard American usage requires that we construe a dictionary's lack of explicit permissions as a prohibition. Counterexamples abound: You wouldn't require of Freudian psychoanalysts to agree with everything Freud ever said about psychoanalysis. You wouldn't require of Marxist sociologists to agree with everything Marx ever said about society and social change. You wouldn't require Darwinist biologists to agree with everything Darwin ever said about evolution. And why would you? A general tendency to agree with the leader is usually considered enough to mark one as a follower. So why would you require of Christians, and only of Christians, that they agree with everything Jesus Christ ever said about religion? I find your demands quite arbitrary and pedantic.

joefromchicago wrote:
I'd just add that virtually all Muslims would disagree with you, but I suppose that's one of those doctrinal issues that isn't important, at least on a definitional level.

You're right. I would chalk that up to convention and religious politics, not logic.
kuvasz
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 10:42 am
@saab,
With a name like Saab I expect that you are both a Swede and Lutheran. Go back and look at the your Church's confessional writings and you will see the Nicene Creed as faithful exposition of Holy Scripture truth.

Your remarks are an important example of the thesis of this thread, viz., the adherents of most religions are generally woefully ignorant of the tenets of their faith.

The function of a baptism is symbolic, it remains to the individual to accept the faith and its tenets. You don't have to, but you are in fact losing the essence of the faith by rejecting the Resurrection as untrue. The Resurrection of Jesus is the first and only time in human history that a person rose from the dead (disregarding Lazarus, since Jesus did the rising of) and is the jumping off point of Christianity that reconciles waking consciousness to the mysterium tremendum et fascinans of this universe as it is. Accepting as Faith the Resurrection is a metaphysical function to awaken us to the mystery and wonder of creation, to open our minds and our senses to an awareness of the mystical "ground of being," the source of all phenomena.

There is a scene in the third Indiana Jones movie where the hero has to "believe" and take a step out into thin air in order to save his father. He does. his foot lands on solid ground and by that act of faith alone saves his father. In a similar fashion that is the pyschological basis for believing in the Resurrection. It awakens and maintain in the individual an experience of awe, humility, and respect, in recognition of that ultimate mystery, transcending names and forms. If one can believe in life arising from death, the final conquerer, then there is the possibility for the eternal life the Church preaches.

In other words, its all connected.

I think that if one understands why a religion "works," meaning giving succor to its adherents you can grasp a greater understanding of your own religious belief and how the entire artiface has to taken as a whole in order to produce its most profound affect on the individual.

To reiterate:

The four functions of religion:

1. Mystical – realizing the wonder of the universe, awe before the mystery
2. Cosmological – a picture of the universe (e.g., Hebrew worldview).
3. Sociological – supports and validates a particular social order.
4. Pedagogical – how to live a human life.

So, as the other poster pointed out about Liberal Christians who look upon the Resurrection as "metaphor," that subtracts the mystical function of religion, making it little more than a set of ethical pronouncements.

Don't mistake what I am saying, because I too look at such stories metaphorically; the Resurrection story as an example to all humanity as a metaphor for dying to your animal nature and being "reborn" as a truly sentient and spiritual being. But even Gnostics like me recognize that there are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in my philosophy.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 11:30 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
That's because a lot of Christians are using definitional quibbles as a leverage for emotional blackmail: "If you don't believe what we believe, then you're not a true Christian." I refuse to play this game. Indeed, because I'm not a Christian, I couldn't play it if I wanted to. Nor do I have any interest in the precise definition of what constitutes a Christian. The vague definitions implied by standard American usage, as spelled out in mainstream dictionaries, are perfectly sufficient for me.

You want to rely on a definition based on usage, but then you refuse to acknowledge that the people who actually use the word disagree with your definition.

Thomas wrote:
They didn't prohibit it, either. And nothing about standard American usage requires that we construe a dictionary's lack of explicit permissions as a prohibition.

The dictionary doesn't permit or prohibit anything. It's your reliance on the dictionary's definition that is in question.

Thomas wrote:
Counterexamples abound: You wouldn't require of Freudian psychoanalysts to agree with everything Freud ever said about psychoanalysis. You wouldn't require of Marxist sociologists to agree with everything Marx ever said about society and social change. You wouldn't require Darwinist biologists to agree with everything Darwin ever said about evolution. And why would you? A general tendency to agree with the leader is usually considered enough to mark one as a follower. So why would you require of Christians, and only of Christians, that they agree with everything Jesus Christ ever said about religion?

Because Christianity is a religion. But then I'm not the one saying that "Christians" have to be followers of Christ's teachings. Remember, that's your definition, not mine.

Thomas wrote:
joefromchicago wrote:
I'd just add that virtually all Muslims would disagree with you, but I suppose that's one of those doctrinal issues that isn't important, at least on a definitional level.

You're right. I would chalk that up to convention and religious politics, not logic.

Once again, you want to rely on a definition based on usage while ignoring the word's actual usage.
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 11:33 am
@kuvasz,
Found the Indiana Jones Clip... A Leap of Faith.

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 01:38 pm
"The sine qua non of Christianity is a belief in the divinity of Christ."

Interesting. I've always thought that the sine qua non of Christianity was the belief that Jesus is one's savior.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 02:38 pm
@InfraBlue,
Only if you're a follower of Pauline Christianity. The redemptive nature of faith in Christ for salvation is pure Paul.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 02:46 pm
@joefromchicago,
I'm going to take your advice and give up. This exchange is fruitless.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 03:24 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
"The sine qua non of Christianity is a belief in the divinity of Christ."

Interesting. I've always thought that the sine qua non of Christianity was the belief that Jesus is one's savior.


This is one of those times when it's not worth getting into an argument with Joe about it--i suspect we tread on his doctrinal toes. When, in the past, i've pointed out to him christians who did not believe in the divinity of the putative christ, he merely responds that they're not christians--in other words, he begs the question with his assumption.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 03:46 pm
@Setanta,
I blame the nuns who beat the crap out of him as a kid.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 04:45 pm
@InfraBlue,
Salvation is due to accepting the divinity of Jesus. That's how Jesus does it; by being a part of the Godhead.

This is fairly common Christian theology. dating back to Tertullian in the late second century who defined the orthodox position; as Christ rose bodily from the grave, so every believer should anticipate the resurrection of the flesh.

Anyone serious about studying the Christian faith would do well to examine Elaine Pagels "The Gnostic Gospels." This Princeton scholar addresses many of the theological struggles of early Christian sects that led to the Orthodox Christianity we recognize today.

Orthodox Christianity, dating from First Council of Nicea in 325 requires that one accept the divinity of Jesus, with the divinity illustrated by the Resurrection. This is what has been considered the integral part of the theology for seventeen hundred years, and is what Christians have in common with other Christians throughout that span.

btw; Joe is correct. The only people who followed the teaching of Jesus yet denied his divinity and Resurrection were considered heretics, not real Christians, throughout most of Christian history.
Always Eleven to him
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 05:10 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Are those not principles that are taught in pretty much every religion? That they have been adopted by secular belief systems does not change the fact that they have governed the social interactions between humans probably for as long as there has been anything that fit the description of a society. And our willingness to abide by them isn't only a matter of the intelligent understanding that it benefits you to do so. It is rooted deep in the emotional life of every individual, and therefore, any concept you introduce to replace religion in preforming this function would not erase religion, but rather become new religion.


But one does not need to be "religious" to understand the principles. One does not need to know the principles' etiology to understand the difference between "right" and "wrong." That's what makes me crazy when I hear a "Christian" tell me that I cannot possibly be a moral person if I don't believe in "God."
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 05:33 pm
@Always Eleven to him,
Quote:
But one does not need to be "religious" to understand the principles. One does not need to know the principles' etiology to understand the difference between "right" and "wrong." That's what makes me crazy when I hear a "Christian" tell me that I cannot possibly be a moral person if I don't believe in "God."


Actually, those people are correct, since morality is generally understood to be between a person and his god, but one can be ethical instead, since ethics is not dependent upon a "sky Friend" and the behavioral strictures it places on its followers, but is interpersonal.

One way to do a little jujitsu on folks like that is to ask them what is the difference between morality and ethics in reference to social behavior. In such a case it is the destination, viz., Aristotlian "right" behavior towards others that is paramount, regardless of the journey tread via a moral or ethical vehicle.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 05:43 pm
@JPB,
jpb

This one's for you

JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 05:59 pm
@kuvasz,
heh, yeah... I usually refer to him as Saul of Tarsus/Paul the Usurper
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 08:01 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

I'm going to take your advice and give up.

Wise decision.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2010 09:18 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Thomas wrote:

I'm going to take your advice and give up.

Wise decision.

By your definition of "wise", needless to say.
 

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