7
   

Best Conclusions to Book Series

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 09:46 am
@Shapeless,
Quote:

Well, not exactly. Voldemort's turning Harry into a Horcrux did not grant Harry immunity; it granted Voldemort immunity. That's what Horcruxes do: since Voldy has a Horcrux in Harry, Voldy can't die. It was Voldemort's inadvertent turning of himself into Harry's Horcrux that granted Harry immunity.


Yeah - I guess that the entire point I was trying to make is that it doesn't seem like this is the sort of thing that you could a) do by accident, and b) not know that you just did. The way that Horcruxes are talked up earlier in the series, it doesn't seem like you could do something like that by accident - it is extremely powerful and forgotten magic, supposedly.

Cycloptichorn
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 10:53 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Well, not exactly. Voldemort's turning Harry into a Horcrux did not grant Harry immunity; it granted Voldemort immunity. That's what Horcruxes do: since Voldy has a Horcrux in Harry, Voldy can't die. It was Voldemort's inadvertent turning of himself into Harry's Horcrux that granted Harry immunity.


Yeah - I guess that the entire point I was trying to make is that it doesn't seem like this is the sort of thing that you could a) do by accident, and b) not know that you just did. The way that Horcruxes are talked up earlier in the series, it doesn't seem like you could do something like that by accident - it is extremely powerful and forgotten magic, supposedly.

Cycloptichorn


Shapeless also pointed out that the complicated life-death link between Harry and Voldemort was a theme in all seven books. It was a complication that kept the suspense going for readers of the series. It is not surprising that it was too complicated for Voldemort himself to understand.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 10:57 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

Well, not exactly. Voldemort's turning Harry into a Horcrux did not grant Harry immunity; it granted Voldemort immunity. That's what Horcruxes do: since Voldy has a Horcrux in Harry, Voldy can't die. It was Voldemort's inadvertent turning of himself into Harry's Horcrux that granted Harry immunity.


Yeah - I guess that the entire point I was trying to make is that it doesn't seem like this is the sort of thing that you could a) do by accident, and b) not know that you just did. The way that Horcruxes are talked up earlier in the series, it doesn't seem like you could do something like that by accident - it is extremely powerful and forgotten magic, supposedly.

Cycloptichorn


Shapeless also pointed out that the complicated life-death link between Harry and Voldemort was a theme in all seven books. It was a complication that kept the suspense going for readers of the series. It is not surprising that it was too complicated for Voldemort himself to understand.


Yeah, it is - after all, this guy is the end-all be-all master when it comes to making Horcruxes. He knows more about it than anyone alive, period. Why would it be too complex for him to understand? How did it happen by accident? Unanswered questions, but I understand that there's no real point in answering them.

Just because there was a 'prophecy' saying that this sort of thing would happen, doesn't mean it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina. It was an externality, an event which not only took place outside of the time range of any of the books, it was outside of the control of any of the characters - yet pivotal and crucial to the downfall of the main enemy.

Cycloptichorn
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 12:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Yeah, it is - after all, this guy is the end-all be-all master when it comes to making Horcruxes. He knows more about it than anyone alive, period. Why would it be too complex for him to understand? How did it happen by accident?


Remember that when we say "Voldemort made himself into Harry's Horcrux," we're speaking metaphorically. It's not like Voldemort actually (or even accidentally) cast the Horcrux spell on himself. Harry became immune from Voldemort because Voldy took Harry's blood during the graveyard ritual, which had nothing to do with Horcruxes. So there's no inconsistency between Voldy's knowledge of Horcruxes and his error of taking Harry's blood.

That Harry's strength came from the power of sacrifice... now yes, that was too difficult for Voldemort to understand. But failure to understand the power of sacrifice is exactly what defines Voldemort's character, so there's nothing "external" about it.


Quote:
Just because there was a 'prophecy' saying that this sort of thing would happen, doesn't mean it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina. It was an externality, an event which not only took place outside of the time range of any of the books, it was outside of the control of any of the characters - yet pivotal and crucial to the downfall of the main enemy.


True: the prophecy alone doesn't mean it wasn't a Deux Ex Machina. But the prophecy was an iteration of the underlying theme of the whole series. The accidental Horcruxes were a mistake on Voldemort's part but it's the same mistake he's been making the whole series, the mistake that defines his character: failure to realize that Harry's strengths are precisely Voldemort's weaknesses and vice versa, and (as Dumbledore has to spell out to Harry in Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince) that every attempt to conquer Harry through selfishness merely reinforces the power of Harry's selflessness. That's why Harry won in Sorcerer's Stone, when he looked into the Mirror of Erised without any desire to use the stone for himself; it's why Harry won at the end of Order of the Phoenix, when his only thought as Voldemort tried to destroy him was that he'd see Sirius again; etc.

Voldemort made the "Horcrux mistake" when he took Harry's blood in the graveyard at the end of Goblet of Fire. The purpose of his doing so was to steal the protective magic imbued in Harry's blood, bring himself back to full strength, and destroy Harry to boot. Voldemort's "error" was not inconsistent with or external to his character, but the exact opposite: it epitomized his character. He was doing what he always does--destroying others for personal gain--not realizing that this makes Harry, who epitomizes selflessness, stronger.

So I can't see why the "accidental Horcrux device" could be called an externality. It's a literal instance of what has been metaphorical throughout the whole series.

Man... I'd almost forgotten how fun it is to philosophize about Harry Potter.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 01:00 pm
@Shapeless,
That was a lovely post!

And while I am genuinely interested in what people nominate as the best conclusion ("Deathly Hallows"? Something else?), the desire to talk about this book was part of why I started this, so I'm happy to see it.

I had remembered about the centrality of the blood part and came back to post but you beat me to it, and more. Very nice summary.

In the spirit of general musing or philosophizing... do you think Snape left his annotated book for Harry because Harry wasn't learning potions very well in the usual way? (He certainly knew them... and lots of other magic... better after reading the book.)

I thought that the explanation of why Snape was both genuinely horrible to Harry while also protecting him was pulled off beautifully. (Snape hated James but loved Lily -- Harry is so very James-ish externally that Snape chafed at his very existence in an everyday way, even if Snape knew that big-picture he had to protect him for Lily.)

That's another iteration of the love theme btw, that Snape's love for Lily is something that Voldemort just didn't get. (She was hot, but she died and is gone now, so like whatevs.)
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 01:06 pm
@Shapeless,
You really have insight into those books, Shapeless. Do you have a graduate degree in English Literature?
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 01:09 pm
@wandeljw,
Alas, no. My only credential in this matter is that I'm a ginormous nerd who's read every book in this series at least twice and most of them three times. 8)
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 01:14 pm
@Shapeless,
That's something to look forward to -- REreading while knowing what to look for!

Another random observation: I loved what she did re: the deadliest curse ("Avada Kedavra"). Without laying it out, it has a clear link to the most obvious "magicky" thing in our (Muggle) world, "abra cadabra." It fits perfectly with the idea that there is genuine magic that is hidden and bits and pieces leak out and are bastardized or denied.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 01:32 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
(Snape hated James but loved Lily -- Harry is so very James-ish externally


..except for his eyes, which are Lily's eyes. And just remembered that Snape's last words were "look at me...." *sniff*
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 02:30 pm
@sozobe,
God, what a moment! Snape was already one of my favorite characters, but after "The Prince's Tale" chapter he became the unquestioned Awesomest Character in the Series.

Rereading the books is a lot of fun because you find that so many things are foreshadowed. Even tiny, inconsequential details: during Harry's O.W.L. exam in Order of the Phoenix, the Ministry adjudicator for the Defense Against the Dark Arts test says to Harry, "I heard, from my dear friend Tiberius Ogden, that you can produce a Patronus?" Then, in Half-Blood Prince, Dumbledore shows Harry the first of the Horcrux memories, specifically that of a Ministry official coming to the house of Marvolo Gaunt. The official's name is Bob Ogden. I guess the Ogden family specialized in enforcement against the dark arts? Very clever.

There's also the scene in Order of the Phoenix where the kids go to the Hog's Head, which "smelled strongly of something that might have been goats" and whose bartender looks "vaguely familiar" to Harry. You don't learn until Deathly Hallows that the man is none other than Aberforth Dumbledore... unless you recall Albus Dumbledore's brief mention in Goblet of Fire that he had a brother who was once convicted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat.

There's a bunch of inconsistencies too, such as the order in which the ghosts emerge from Voldemort's wand during the graveyard duel. The one that bugs me is the possession of the Elder Wand: Ollivander says (and Voldemort later inadvertently confirms) that stealing the Elder Wand is not enough to become master over it; you have to best its owner. And yet that is exactly how Grindelwald took the wand from Gregorovitch: he stole it. So Grindelwald should not have been the master of the wand, which means mastery should not have passed on to Dumbledore when he bested Grindelwald. Mastery of the wand should have passed to whomever legitimately bested Gregorovitch, which was.... Voldemort.

Ah, good times.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 03:14 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
I just finished the Harry Potter series (for the first time, held out this long). Wow.

You liked it, huh. I told you so nine years ago.

sozobe wrote:
What would you nominate as an excellent conclusion?

I like the end of Wagner's Ring des Nibelungen. The whole world just bursts into flames. One caveat: this is technically a series of operas, not a series of books.
0 Replies
 
Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2010 10:46 pm
@sozobe,
i found book 7 of the HP series to be pretty satisfying, particularly the second half. It's nice to see that there are so many fellow sci-fi/fantasy nerds on the boards, but i feel a little out-classed. i don't think i could write about the metaphysico-magical conditions qua thematic closure of the series as eloquently as Shapeless has. Nicely done. Although, for me, the most emotionally difficult and satisfying portions of the book had little to do with the Harry/Voldemort tying up. i felt the most choked up when Dobby was killed, and likewise the entry of the house elves into the final battle was definitely its high point.

As far as other series with satisfying conclusions, i'm inclined to stick with the Sci-fi/Fantasy theme, i'd nominate both The Coldfire Trilogy (by CS Friedman) and (as a representative of a YA series) The Dark is Rising series (by Susan Cooper). i thought both series were really strong throughout, and i thought the conclusion of each ended things nicely. i reread both series every couple of years, when i am in the mood for some good brain candy.

PS: i didn't put a spoiler alert on that Dobby comment, because, in my opinion, anyone who hasn't read the HP series by this point deserves it Twisted Evil (But apparently i felt guilty enough about it to add a PS [appropriately conflicted emoticon here])
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2010 12:33 am
Speaking of long running fantasy series. I'm completely scared of the end of the Wheel of Time series.
0 Replies
 
 

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