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Is religion the same as theism?

 
 
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2010 05:40 pm
@mark noble,
And before the big bang- everything.
A Lyn Fei
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Sep, 2010 05:51 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I agree with you that we find what we seek. Anything else is indeed impossible.
But how, then, can anything be anything but exploration of self? If you always find what you seek, and still you experience things you don't want and run into things you would rather avoid, doesn't that suggest that you might not know entirely what it is you are after?


I will concede that everything is an exploration of self. This must be true, but perhaps the word "seek" is not quite as fitting as another. We find what we imagine could be. Our own brains limit us to our existence. Those things that we seek, as in desire, would most likely lead to the plausibility-of-the-world's undoing if we found them all. Do you ever really want to get everything that you want?
I can only say this for myself, as it is a deeply personal matter, but I yield that I do not know what I am after. It feels more as though I am placed here and must exist. Anything more is mine to do with what I will, keeping in mind that I am highly influenced by my culture, genetic predispositions, and environment.

(On a side note, I love when questions lead to profound thought)
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2010 11:27 am
@A Lyn Fei,
I am not sure what limits us to our existence. According to some theories "reality" is just potential information. It isn't really anything until it is observed. Only then will one out of all the probable outcomes manifest as "reality".
Other theories says our terms in life are set by a higher power, and proceed to dictate those terms as they choose.

And to swing this back to the topic we are on, it is easy to classify the latter set of theories as theism.
But the first set of theories, what are they?
The particular one I make reference to is perhaps best described as religion, even though it attempts to explain reality with quantum physics.

(On that sidenote, if the question leads to profound thought it was the right question Wink )
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Sep, 2010 01:56 pm
@A Lyn Fei,
And before that - This.
0 Replies
 
john2054
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 09:30 am
@Cyracuz,
Hiya Cyracus, I think that you have done rather a noble attempt to fend yourself from these primedival disbelievers! JK you lot! But seriously trying to justify faith in this seemingly seemless faithless and God hating world is a thankless task at times. And that's why you should be commended for it. John.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 10:47 am
@john2054,
john, It's impossible to hate a person who doesn't exist. That's simple logic.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 11:11 am
@john2054,
Thanks John. But I am not trying to justify faith. Faith needs no justification from fact. The problem is when actions or ideas are justified soley with belief, and this I believe is one of an atheists (person who don't believe in god, not faith) objections.

But "the scientific method can teach us nothing beyond how facts are related to, and conditioned by, each other", as Einstein put it. Perhaps it can be argued that ideas or actions justified soley with scientific fact is equally problematic. Which is perhaps the theists motive for not yielding to the atheist.

But regardless of what you believe in, I would say that it is beneficial to realize the distinction between faith and belief, and that until you realize that belief is a matter of choice you will always be at risk of being used through your beliefs, or having your beliefs used against you. Any belief is just human product and it's claim to be religion is false. What is "divine", and the essence of true religion is the human capacity for faith, easily abused but not easily ignored.

Edit. Forgot to add an interesting link of an article by Einstein on science and religion. http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 11:46 am
@Cyracuz,
I believe the best explanation I have ever heard about religious belief is equated to love. We know it's there, but nobody can prove it by words alone.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 11:55 am
@cicerone imposter,
I'd say nobody can prove it by words, period. The experience is the only thing that can really impart the wisdom of what love is.
Similarly, "cosmic religious feeling", to borrow Einsteins term, cannot be communicated with words. Not because it is something false, but because the words, by the very attribute that make them so useful elsewhere, are inapplicable. You cannot add words without inevitably adding something to it that someone can call lies.

Perhaps another term for "cosmic religious feeling" could be "undirected love". Just the experience of feeling love without any the feeling centering around a particular object, person or idea.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 12:01 pm
@Cyracuz,
In love, one must use words as well as actions to express it. In religion, one will say, "I believe in the Lord Jesus." Beyond those words, it's impossible for any outsider to know what the individual experiences with love or their religion.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 12:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Precicely, which makes for the argument that any organized religion is merely a perversion of the true idea of religion, and therefore not really religion at all. I frequently wonder how much difference it would make to a christian's personal beliefs if the whole organization of christianity was recognized as the secular, political and economical institution it really is.
There is no value in "god" if you don't seek a personal and intimate relationship with it, and no organization or social circle can ever aid you in that, but it can very easily become an obstacle by telling you what to believe rather than teaching you how to identify beneficial ideas based on your own capacity for faith, in situations where scientific fact is not sufficient or applicable and you still need to take a standpoint. There are such issues in life.

Show me a thousand christians, and I will not deny that anyone of them is religious if they say they are. But the catholic church, or the protestant church or any church are not religious institutions. The very idea is a contradiction in terms if you ask me. This is the consideration that led me to ask the question if religion and theism are the same. By the "official" definition of religion they appear to be so closely linked that it hardly matters, but I believe that the definition of religion has been usurped, and that it is simply applied to the wrong thing.

So in light of this view of things it is perhaps possible to understand what I mean when I say that I am not theist nor atheist, but I am a religious person. I instinctively seek that which can connect me to a sense of purposeful unity on an emotional level, and I honestly think that this is something I share with all humans.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 12:32 pm
@Cyracuz,
It's not that simple; organized religion "spread the word" and convert people into their "clan." It's no different than the parents who insist that their children attend church with them; they are indoctrinated very early in their life into their religious beliefs.

Of all the religions, I favor buddhism the most, because they don't look at other's weaknesses or "sins." They try to live a good life, and look at themselves to improve themselves. They understand that life is full of misery and pain. They can only control what they think and feel. My wife is a buddhist.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 04:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I too favor buddhism of all the great religions.
But it is sometimes referred to as a philosophy, lacking the aspect of theism that so often is mistaken for the religious aspects of any belief.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 04:44 pm
Isn't it now clear that the fact that religion and science have some features in common, and even one important feature, namely that both attempt to explain phenomena in the world, and even the existence of the world, does not mean that they are the same thing? As most of us knew from the very start of this thread.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 04:56 pm
@kennethamy,
kenneth, Don't even go there; religion is philosophy, and science is science.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 05:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You may not agree with this definition but if you do would you say that religion is
[the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] It is distinguished from other ways of addressing fundamental questions (such as mysticism, myth, or the arts) by its critical, generally systematic approach and its reliance on rational argument.[3] The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom]. ????
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 05:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

kenneth, Don't even go there; religion is philosophy, and science is science.


What has that to do with my post?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 05:45 pm
@kennethamy,
I think he may of read to fast but I could be wrong!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 05:49 pm
@kennethamy,
You wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it now clear that the fact that religion and science have some features in common, and even one important feature, namely that both attempt to explain phenomena in the world, and even the existence of the world, does not mean that they are the same thing? As most of us knew from the very start of this thread.


The bible does not explain "phenomena in the world." Trying to compare it to science is what the Creation Institute has been trying to prove in court, and lost.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Sep, 2010 05:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote:
Quote:
Isn't it now clear that the fact that religion and science have some features in common, and even one important feature, namely that both attempt to explain phenomena in the world, and even the existence of the world, does not mean that they are the same thing? As most of us knew from the very start of this thread.


The bible does not explain "phenomena in the world." Trying to compare it to science is what the Creation Institute has been trying to prove in court, and lost.




I think I said "religion", not "the Bible". Ancient Greek religion tried to explain the phenomenon of thunder with the hypothesis that it was the sound made by the God bowling. But, in Genesis , the world and all the phenomena in it are explained in terms of something done by God in six days.
 

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