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Random Mutation as Driver of Evolution

 
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 07:18 pm
@farmerman,
We humans will learn how to better tinker with DNA/genes/chromosomes and then we can put evolution on a fast track.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 04:03 am
@Foofie,
Why?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 04:42 am
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
I think we need to start calling this kind of snipping for political effect Sherrodism or Sherroding your opponent.
Theres already been a perfectly good phrase thats been in use for about 20 years "Quote Mining" has become synonymous with attempts at taking material totally out of context and clipped in a way that normal connective sentences sound like phrases that cdontradict what the original quotee said.

"Sherroding" or "Eddingtonizing" will soon lose any immediacy and wont have any punch . However, Quote Mining sells a point quite well and Im satified with it thank you.

Farmer( i dont never fix what aint busted) Man
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 11:14 am
There is also the whole interesting argument of artificial selection, and how mankind will very likely use it to modify himself as well as other creatures!
Quote:
Artificial selection (or selective breeding) describes intentional breeding for certain traits, or combination of traits. The term was utilized by Charles Darwin in contrast to natural selection, in which the differential reproduction of organisms with certain traits is attributed to improved survival or reproductive ability (“Darwinian fitness”). As opposed to artificial selection, in which humans favor specific traits, in natural selection the environment acts as a sieve through which only certain variations can pass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_selection
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 12:12 pm
@Chumly,
A. S. is behind eugenics. I can see employing several genetic interventions to reduce , say Tay-Sacks or Sickle Cell. I just dont see us being an agent of manipulation of Nat selection.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 01:19 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
A. S. is behind eugenics. I can see employing several genetic interventions to reduce , say Tay-Sacks or Sickle Cell. I just dont see us being an agent of manipulation of Nat selection.
Are you suggesting mankind does not / will not have the power to manipulate natural selection through genetics, or that mankind won't now or in the future?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 01:46 pm
@Chumly,
We have been perfectly capable of manipulating natural selection without genetics. It's called "farming" and "stock-breeding", and it's been going on since Neolithic times.
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 01:52 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
We have been perfectly capable of manipulating natural selection without genetics. It's called "farming" and "stock-breeding", and it's been going on since Neolithic times.
Yep as I've referenced in my previous pos # 4,303,614 a slight ways up yonder, have a look-see.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 02:39 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

bonacquist wrote:

Random mutation is a very inefficient means of driving evolution, since most mutations are not adaptive. Why hasn't life over the eons hit upon a more efficient means of evolving?


Evolution is NOT driven by random mutation. Mutations happen but it is natural selection that drives evolution. An evolutionary change that helps an organism to survive in a particular ecosystem gets passed on to future generations. Successful adaptations are thus connected to the specifics of a natural environment. Natural selection is anything BUT random.

You're wrong. If you were right, the gene pool would evolve until everyone had the best genes and then stop. New improvements would have no mechanism of making their way into the gene pool.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 02:55 pm
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
If you were right, the gene pool would evolve until everyone had the best genes and then stop. New improvements would have no mechanism of making their way into the gene pool.
Best, there is no best, ADAPT or adapt not. There is no BEST.--Apologies to Yoda
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 03:05 pm
@farmerman,
Tell that to my wife when she buys those overpriced designer jeans.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 03:58 pm
@farmerman,
There can't be BEST, brandon, because condition constantly change. The happy beasties in the Louisiana/Mississippi coastal swamps from last year maybe different in some ways next year. Maybe 99% of a particular mollusk will be killed by the oil, but the remaining 1% may have a peculiar defense against petro products.....or maybe they just didn't get hit hard enough to expire.
The population may have changes simply from the reduction of the number of parents spawning new mollusks OR there may not be any discernible changes at all.

Joe(what life was a minute ago, won't be the same as it will be in a minute and a half.)Nation
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 04:09 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

There can't be BEST, brandon, because condition constantly change. The happy beasties in the Louisiana/Mississippi coastal swamps from last year maybe different in some ways next year. Maybe 99% of a particular mollusk will be killed by the oil, but the remaining 1% may have a peculiar defense against petro products.....or maybe they just didn't get hit hard enough to expire.
The population may have changes simply from the reduction of the number of parents spawning new mollusks OR there may not be any discernible changes at all.

Joe(what life was a minute ago, won't be the same as it will be in a minute and a half.)Nation

Evolution couldn't do what it does without the introduction of new traits into the gene pool. Selection doesn't create new and better traits, it only causes existing traits to be selected for or against. The mechanism for introducing new traits into the gene pool is accidental mutation. Evolution requires both selection and the introduction of new traits.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 05:47 pm
@Brandon9000,
adaptation doesnt necessarilly take "new genes" to start the evolutionary ball rolling. Also "new genes" can be brought into a genotype from fertilization of a single point mutation on the lines of one of the parents. While technically a mutation, it is responded to by selector genes within the cell makeup of the offspring .
What Joe was speaking about was the fact that a "hopeful monster" already gifted with that single point , may actually thrive in petroleum fouled water. No new genes were necessary really, just a shuffle of the existing ones.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 05:50 pm
@farmerman,
If a certain percent have a given gene and all those that don't have the gene die off due to environmental changes then the gene becomes prevalent without any changes in the existing gene structure.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 06:03 pm
Just posting to say I'm enjoying the thread..

carry on.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 07:40 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

If a certain percent have a given gene and all those that don't have the gene die off due to environmental changes then the gene becomes prevalent without any changes in the existing gene structure.

Yes, but what happens next? Once most members of the species have the gene, where does the next improvement come from. Sooner or later all this is done, and without the introduction of new traits, there is little future improvement.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 07:41 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

adaptation doesnt necessarilly take "new genes" to start the evolutionary ball rolling. Also "new genes" can be brought into a genotype from fertilization of a single point mutation on the lines of one of the parents. While technically a mutation, it is responded to by selector genes within the cell makeup of the offspring .
What Joe was speaking about was the fact that a "hopeful monster" already gifted with that single point , may actually thrive in petroleum fouled water. No new genes were necessary really, just a shuffle of the existing ones.

Sorry, I meant new traits, not new genes. I don't talk about this subject very often.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 07:46 pm
@Brandon9000,
There will always be variations. It's just that some of the variations will disappear because they may become fatal if the environment changes.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 08:02 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
The mechanism for introducing new traits into the genepool is accidental mutation. Evolution requires both selection and the introduction of new traits.

What about crossover?
 

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