A question for Goshisdead

Ha ! I have a Question ? U know the game of Tarot ?

You mean Tarot cards? If so, I'm somewhat familiar.

Me too. Was the Yoker the 0 ?

I don't know. My wife used to play around with that stuff. I don't remember ever getting the joker.

I used to tear up cards I did not like... I should get a complete deck again. You did not think your wife a bit scilly ? Did she do the CeltiC X

No I didn't think she was silly. I don't buy into that stuff, but I doesn't bother me that others do. Yes, her cards were Celtic types of some sort.

I know you didn't ask me in particular, but I don't know of a case of what you're describing... except maybe when English changed as a result of the Norman conquest. It didn't take long because the two were highly motivated to understand each other. They spoke a "baby talk" version of English that ultimately simplified it. On the other hand English got the great advantage of Latin and Greek roots out of the deal.

In the US, we have TexMex.. a combination of English and Spanish.

Yeah, that's right she did an x.

Thanks, it's fine for anyone to respond. I couldn't think of an example of a complete change either, but more of the influences and trades of words that you described.

I'm not aware of any instances where languages have peaceably merged. As far as I know, one language normally colonizes another in the cases where two language groups occupy the same area. They often seem to have merged because the language adopted tends to take on features, and vocabulary of the languages not adopted as primary. Take English for example, it no longer structurally resembles its Germanic roots because of the Norman occupation which mandated French as the primary language, so once English took hold again it no longer sounded like Dutch and Frissian. This is called superstratum influence. It is when a dominant language group affects a non-dominant language that remains a viable language. In fact English grammar was sort of leveled out almost to an isolated or super charged version of a creole.

Also take Romance languages. Vulgate Latin was spoken in most of the areas where Romance languages are now spoken. It was imposed on the occupants who were Celtic in France and Spain and Slavic in Romania. The local languages affected the Vulgate latin in ways that changed the grammar slightly and the vocabulary significantly. These are called substratum influences.

Granted after so much history and conquering this and economically conquering that etc.. most languages have considerable super and substratum influences from a variety of languages and families.

This leads to pidgeons and creoles. A pidgeon happens normally when two groups meet for trade or a colonizing force does not mandate that the native population learn the colonizing language, but still does not bother to learn the native language. A pidgin is a super simplified language with very little to no real grammar and a mix of both language's vocabulary, normally the colonizing or dominant business force's vocabulary provide the major portion of non-core functions and the native language provide for the core functions. For example Brava Island and Guinnean creoles have native pronouns but most vocab is Portuguese.

there is debate about when a pidgeon turns to a creole but the general consensus is that it happens when a generation of speakers learn the pidgeon as their primary/native language. At this point grammar is naturally added, simple tenses and aspects are added, as well as deictic and other pragmatic systems. It is still a super simplified grammar but it is complex enough to function as a real language.


Don't know if this helped, but its the answer I have.

What a load o crap! ... Just kidding.

That's probably the best answer there is. So I'll guess that'll just have to do.

Thanks.

I suppose these changes you've outlined can take place in just a generation or two?

They can especially in the case of creolization. 5 normally more for grammatical changes. Vocabulary changes can happen within a person's lifetimes in all the instances, although this is normally category specific. For example military language might change quickly but culinary may not or any combination of gerneral categories most affected by the language proximities. For example most of English's latin vocab is legal/military/governmental/Religious etc... areas where French was spoken and Latin used more often.

Kinda takes the steam out of the prescriptivist notion that language must be protected from just this sort of degradation.

yeah I'm not a prescriptivist
by any stretch of the imagination

In New York's Washington Heights, we speak Spanglish mostly, unless we are at the deli, then it is a kind of Yiddish with hand gestures while over at the Hunan Balcony it depends upon whether the counter person on duty is named Diaz or Chou.

Could be either.
I've met Israelis who speak excellent Spanish (Mexicano) and Russians who can wait on the babushka and on the lady from the Dominican Republic seamlessly. I speak very bad Tex-Mex to the fruit vendors on Broadway and the guy at the Dominican grocery.

Joe(Order by number tres seis cinco DaH? Yah? Si?or No?)Nation

I didn't think you could be, GiD. You appear way too, mmmm, thoughtful, shall we say?

I suppose i can think about stuff contrary to my apparent reputation. Besides there wasn't much thought put into this thread its mostly regurgitation from an undergrad historical linguistics class.

What is a quark ? I can bake a kwark-cake but do not understand QM well.