0
   

The True Founder of Christianity

 
 
Mobkem
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 04:50 pm
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 2,459 • Replies: 27
No top replies

 
Whatever cv
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 12:12 am
@Mobkem,
Bingo. I start off with "There is no God. Just people creating religion to control others."
0 Replies
 
alanpg
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 08:02 pm
@Mobkem,
Wow
I saw some young Muslims on TV indicating that the USA directed the 911 tragedy as an excuse to attack the Muslim faith.
This is just as ridiculous - Paul the founder of Christianity creating his own doctrines.
It is not worthy of the time to argue this

Christianity has strength because it was God planned since Genesis 3.15

The new testament has replaced the old (nailed to the cross) and God's plan has been completely revealed in Christ.
Paul claims he received the gospel through the revelation of Jesus Christ, see below.

Galatians 1:6-12

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is no wonder the truth is hidden
2 Cor 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
2 Cor 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Why are they perishing? Simply because in spiritual matters they have chosen to believe what men have taught or more frequently aligned with what they want to believe.

It is very serious and as always you are likely your own worst enemy - well you and your pride
If you seriously want to make a success of your next life;
try this Heaven Coach ........... it might provide for you a different albeit not necessarily a comfortable direction for your life
0 Replies
 
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 09:50 am
@Mobkem,
Mobkem;69459 wrote:
Three years after he began his ministry, he was arrested and charged with sedition and blasphemy. Success had eluded him, at the end of his life on earth; he left behind only a mere handful of followers, not more than 500 at most.

You left out one thing. Jesus rose from the dead which shows that he didn't fail. The reason he came to earth was to die for our sins so that we could be forgiven. After his resurrection he commanded his followers to begin preaching the gospel. Before his death he told his disciples, "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:12,13). Paul was one of those whom he chose to reveal these new truths through the Holy Spirit.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 03:22 pm
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71416 wrote:
You left out one thing. Jesus rose from the dead which shows that he didn't fail. The reason he came to earth was to die for our sins so that we could be forgiven. After his resurrection he commanded his followers to begin preaching the gospel. Before his death he told his disciples, "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth" (John 16:12,13). Paul was one of those whom he chose to reveal these new truths through the Holy Spirit.


What about Joseph smith and Muhammad? Had he chosen them, and how do you know?
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 11:00 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;71423 wrote:
What about Joseph smith and Muhammad? Had he chosen them, and how do you know?

Jesus said he would reveal all his teachings to the apostles to whom he was speaking. They all died before the time of Joseph Smith and Muhammad. But Paul did say something that applied to them. In Galatians 1:8 he said, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Both of them claimed to have received their teachings from angels.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Apr, 2010 06:59 pm
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71443 wrote:
Jesus said he would reveal all his teachings to the apostles to whom he was speaking. They all died before the time of Joseph Smith and Muhammad. But Paul did say something that applied to them. In Galatians 1:8 he said, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." Both of them claimed to have received their teachings from angels.


Why would you believe Paul over others who say that yahweh (through angels) had spoken to them?

Is Paul's word more authoritative than Muhammad's or Joseph Smith? According to the OP Paul had made a doctrine of his own, if this is true, you are begging the question (circular logic).
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2010 09:57 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;71449 wrote:
Why would you believe Paul over others who say that yahweh (through angels) had spoken to them?

Is Paul's word more authoritative than Muhammad's or Joseph Smith? According to the OP Paul had made a doctrine of his own, if this is true, you are begging the question (circular logic).

The apostles who had been with Jesus while he was on earth accepted Paul as an apostle and acknowledged that God had spoken to him. According to 2 Peter 3:16,17 they regarded Paul's letters as being part of the scriptures.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Apr, 2010 11:51 am
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71457 wrote:
The apostles who had been with Jesus while he was on earth accepted Paul as an apostle and acknowledged that God had spoken to him. According to 2 Peter 3:16,17 they regarded Paul's letters as being part of the scriptures.


So why would you accept the word of one prophet over the others?
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 10:05 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;71462 wrote:
So why would you accept the word of one prophet over the others?
If someone is a true prophet his teaching will agree with what God has revealed in the Bible. Every religious teacher must be tested by the Bible. In fact you should check the Bible to see if the things I have been saying here are true.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 29 Apr, 2010 12:19 pm
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71473 wrote:
If someone is a true prophet his teaching will agree with what God has revealed in the Bible.


...according to biblical prophets.


Why should I believe the bible is not just another religious text?
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 08:47 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;71478 wrote:
Why should I believe the bible is not just another religious text?
One reason for believing it is that it conatins prophesies which are being fulfilled right now. The Old Testament contains predictions that the Jews would be driven from their land and be scattered throughout the world but at the end of the age they would be regatered to their own land. That regathering is taking place now and began when Israel became a nation in 1948.
kynaston
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 12:11 pm
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71484 wrote:
One reason for believing it is that it conatins prophesies which are being fulfilled right now. The Old Testament contains predictions that the Jews would be driven from their land and be scattered throughout the world but at the end of the age they would be regatered to their own land. That regathering is taking place now and began when Israel became a nation in 1948.


Judaism gathered in gentile converts from all over the Roman Empire and converted the whole Khazar kingdom later. In what sense can the descendants of those people be returning to 'their own land', and does your God approve of robbery, ethnic cleansing, torture and child-murder? In what sense, further, are the various kinds of atheist now bullying and terrorizing Palestinians 'Jews' in any sense at all other than a continued devotion to male genital mutilation? If that is your notion of prophecy, theophilus, I'd not put money on it.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Apr, 2010 07:43 pm
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71484 wrote:
One reason for believing it is that it conatins prophesies which are being fulfilled right now. The Old Testament contains predictions that the Jews would be driven from their land and be scattered throughout the world but at the end of the age they would be regatered to their own land. That regathering is taking place now and began when Israel became a nation in 1948.


I've asked that question many times, and the only acceptable answer I've received is the one you've just given. Certainly if the Bible correctly predicted things that hadn't happened yet, there would be no natural explanation for that.

But for something to be a genuine prediction/prophesy it need to be the following:


1. Very specific. Includes specific names and places.

2. Unambiguous. No words with multiple meanings. No interpretation required.

3. Not self-confirming. Event is confirmed by sources other than those making the prediction.

4. Non self-fulfilling. Knowledge of prediction cannot influence it's occurrence.

5. Prediction is recorded before the event it predicts.

6. It was clearly stated when the prediction would be fulfilled. No "This will happen (eventually)" prophecies.

7. It's not something obvious, or something that could happen by chance.



If you can show me a biblical prophecy that fulfills all of these criteria, I would accept it as evidence.
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2010 09:55 am
@kynaston,
kynaston;71487 wrote:
Judaism gathered in gentile converts from all over the Roman Empire and converted the whole Khazar kingdom later. In what sense can the descendants of those people be returning to 'their own land',
Converts who were circumcized and willing to keep the law were regarded as part of Israel. Exodus 12:48 says, "If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD,let all his males be circuncised. Then he shall come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land." Any nation contains two kings of citizens, those who were born citizens and those who were originally from another country and became citizens, and both kinds have the same rights. Israel is no different in this respect.

Quote:
and does your God approve of robbery, ethnic cleansing, torture and child-murder?
No. What does this have to do with the subject?
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2010 10:16 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;71492 wrote:
But for something to be a genuine prediction/prophesy it need to be the following:
1. Very specific. Includes specific names and places.

2. Unambiguous. No words with multiple meanings. No interpretation required.
The current nation of Israel is in the same geographic location as ancient Israel, speaks the same language, and accepts the same scriptures. Is that specific enough to meet these conditions?

Quote:
3. Not self-confirming. Event is confirmed by sources other than those making the prediction.
Israel is often in the news today so their can't be any doubt that it really exists.

Quote:
4. Non self-fulfilling. Knowledge of prediction cannot influence it's occurrence.
The fact that people deliberately try to fulfill a prophecy doesn't prove that the prophecy isn't true. But in the case of Israel, most Israelis are secular and don't believe the prophecies are inspired by God and there are orthodox Jews who are opposed to Israel because they believe that the prophecies of return will only be fulfilled when the Messiah comes.

Quote:
5. Prediction is recorded before the event it predicts.
Israel was established in 1948. I think everyone would agree that the prophecies were written before then.

Quote:
6. It was clearly stated when the prediction would be fulfilled. No "This will happen (eventually)" prophecies.
God doesn't always reveal the time his prophecies will be fulfilled. Christ has said that no one can know when he will return, but if you suddenly hear that all of the Christians in the world are gone, won't that prove to you that the Rapture has taken place?

Quote:
7. It's not something obvious, or something that could happen by chance.
I don't know whether Israel meets this criterion or not, but it seems that the fact that the Jews have been able to survive and retain their language and culture in spite of all the persecution they have suffered is an indication that they are under God's protection.

A good way to find out more about the history of the Jews during their exile would be to read God, Jews, and History by Max I. Dimont

Quote:
If you can show me a biblical prophecy that fulfills all of these criteria, I would accept it as evidence.
The establish of Israel doesn't seem to fulfill all of these criteria, but God doesn't always to things the way we would like for him to. I think there is enough evidence to show that God is keeping his promises to Israel.
kynaston
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2010 10:28 am
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71497 wrote:
Converts who were circumcized and willing to keep the law were regarded as part of Israel. Exodus 12:48 says, "If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the LORD,let all his males be circuncised. Then he shall come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land." Any nation contains two kings of citizens, those who were born citizens and those who were originally from another country and became citizens, and both kinds have the same rights. Israel is no different in this respect.

No. What does this have to do with the subject?


The non-ethnic Jews who have occupied Palestine are imitating the nazis who persecuted them in their treatment of the actual descendants of the people of the Old Testament, namely the Palestinians. Where, in this extraordinary non-Christian scenario of yours, is the Messiah? For Jews, clearly, he cannot be Jesus, and for the zionists he is not required at all. I think you should get in touch with some Orthodox rabbi who has not bowed the knee to this particular racist Baal and find out what real Jews expect(ed).
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 May, 2010 10:57 am
@theophilus cv,
theophilus;71498 wrote:
The current nation of Israel is in the same geographic location as ancient Israel, speaks the same language, and accepts the same scriptures. Is that specific enough to meet these conditions?

Israel is often in the news today so their can't be any doubt that it really exists.

The fact that people deliberately try to fulfill a prophecy doesn't prove that the prophecy isn't true. But in the case of Israel, most Israelis are secular and don't believe the prophecies are inspired by God and there are orthodox Jews who are opposed to Israel because they believe that the prophecies of return will only be fulfilled when the Messiah comes.

Israel was established in 1948. I think everyone would agree that the prophecies were written before then.

God doesn't always reveal the time his prophecies will be fulfilled. Christ has said that no one can know when he will return, but if you suddenly hear that all of the Christians in the world are gone, won't that prove to you that the Rapture has taken place?

I don't know whether Israel meets this criterion or not, but it seems that the fact that the Jews have been able to survive and retain their language and culture in spite of all the persecution they have suffered is an indication that they are under God's protection.

A good way to find out more about the history of the Jews during their exile would be to read God, Jews, and History by Max I. Dimont

The establish of Israel doesn't seem to fulfill all of these criteria, but God doesn't always to things the way we would like for him to. I think there is enough evidence to show that God is keeping his promises to Israel.


The biggest complaint I hear about the "Jews returning to Israel" prophesy is that it's self-fulfilling.

Being a biblical prophesy, if it came true, it would reaffirm the faith of Christians and Zionist Jews. And if you recall the Zionist movement was started by a predominantly christian nation, Great Britain, in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which was enforced and supported by Christians.

I would say that certainly the knowledge of said prophesy did affect it's outcome. The location for the new Jewish homeland, was chosen precisely because of the prophesy.
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 09:02 am
@kynaston,
kynaston;71500 wrote:
The non-ethnic Jews who have occupied Palestine are imitating the nazis who persecuted them in their treatment of the actual descendants of the people of the Old Testament, namely the Palestinians.
I think you have gotten it backwards. The Palestinians and other Arab nations are acting like nazis in their desire to destroy Israel. When the UN established Israel in 1948 it also established a state for Palestine. This ended when the other countries united in an attempt to destroy Israel. Israel has been forced to fight constantly to defend herself ever since.

Quote:
Where, in this extraordinary non-Christian scenario of yours, is the Messiah? For Jews, clearly, he cannot be Jesus, and for the zionists he is not required at all. I think you should get in touch with some Orthodox rabbi who has not bowed the knee to this particular racist Baal and find out what real Jews expect(ed).
The Messiah came to the Jews almost 2,000 years ago. It was their rejection of him that brought about their exile. But God has never rejected the Jews as his people and the time is coming when they Jesus will return and they will finally acknowledge him as the Messiah.
theophilus cv
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 09:10 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;71501 wrote:
The biggest complaint I hear about the "Jews returning to Israel" prophesy is that it's self-fulfilling.
The prophesy isn't self-fulfilling but it is being fulfilled by God. When God says something he will happen he is not just passively observing the future but is revealing what he is going to do. The return to Israel is being brought about through the efforts of people but ultimately it is God who inspired those people and enabled them to succeed.

Quote:
Being a biblical prophesy, if it came true, it would reaffirm the faith of Christians and Zionist Jews. And if you recall the Zionist movement was started by a predominantly christian nation, Great Britain, in the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which was enforced and supported by Christians.
The Zionist movement was already underway before the Balfour declaration but the British government did help it.

Quote:
I would say that certainly the knowledge of said prophesy did affect it's outcome. The location for the new Jewish homeland, was chosen precisely because of the prophesy.
The location of the homeland was based on the historical fact that that is where the Jews had lived before.
 

Related Topics

 
  1. Forums
  2. » The True Founder of Christianity
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.35 seconds on 05/05/2024 at 01:20:37