1
   

Suffering in the world

 
 
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 06:41 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
Does that mean no christian has ever died in a holocaust? And why would god allow non-christians to die horrible deaths before they can learn about jesus?


Of course Christians died during the Holocaust, from 3 to 5 millions Christians.They didn't have to die to learn about Jesus. But death and suffering is a part of existence. We all die and we all suffer, except it works for good for Christians. There is a purpose and meaning of suffering for a Christian person.

Quote:
What about native tribesmen who are in complete isolation from the rest of the world, does god allow them to suffer for something that is not their fault?

It's not their individual fault, it's by definition, alive = suffer

Quote:
So do you think all suffering is justified on some level?


That's a good and difficult question. Again for Christians it is, there are references in the New and Old Testament for that. And I provided verses earlier indicating what benefits can it bring.
[SIZE="1"]It is to make us like Christ (Heb 12:9)
To drive us closer to God (1 Pet 4:14)
To produce the fruit of patience (James 1:3-4)
To teach us (Psalm 119:67)
To purify our lives (1 Peter 1:7)
To Glorify God (Phil 1:19-20)
To prepare us for the kingdom (2 Tim 2:12)
[/SIZE]

For non Christians it's justified by their disobedience to God. (I know it's a harsh statement)

As a conclusion, we all suffer but the purpose of suffering is different.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2008 07:05 am
@marcus cv,
So then what is the purpose of people who suffer that have never heard of jesus?
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2008 10:37 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
to find God
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 07:16 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60867 wrote:
to find God


Most People people have found god, although their god my differ from yours. But the question is "can god ethically allow people to suffer who for whatever reason has or will never hear of jesus or christianity"

and on another note what happens to people who died before the spread of Christianity?
0 Replies
 
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 11:20 pm
@marcus cv,
marcus;60275 wrote:
I agree with your post, but how would you respond to the critic who can't reconcile God and suffering to co-exist.

That's the logic they follow:
1. If God all good and all loving God exist, suffering does not exist.
2. Suffering exists.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.



If God (as we understand God to be) is all (as we understand all to be) good (as we understand good to be) and all (see above) loving (as we understand loving to be) suffering (as we understand suffering to be) does not exist (as we understand existence to be).

But you see, we humans, do not have that much understanding.:dunno:
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 04:23 am
@Musky Hunter,
Quote:

But you see, we humans, do not have that much understanding.


Not that simple in our days. :rollinglaugh:

Being enlighten and educated we know at least as much as God, probably even more Wink
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 04:32 am
@marcus cv,
Quote:
Most People people have found god, although their god my differ from yours.
Quote:

But the question is "can god ethically allow people to suffer who for whatever reason has or will never hear of jesus or christianity
and on another note what happens to people who died before the spread of Christianity?


Remember, alive = suffer.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 07:03 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60982 wrote:
Their God is different, because He is imperfect, that's their explanation for the suffering. The ancient religions of Mesopotamia believed that it is caused by multiple gods battling for control. In ancient Egypt, gods were far removed from people. Therefore the moral evil of people caused suffering. In Hinduism, the suffering is associated with the process of reincarnation where a new personality is developed during each life. The suffering is a part of becoming a new person. Buddhism believes that the suffering is in one’s desire. In order to gain release from suffering, one must also be freed from desire. Confucianism suggests that life of man is for the purpose of reaching the perfection and the suffering must be eliminated.


I didn't not inquire as to why there god is different, simply stating that it/he was.

Quote:

Darwinism and Atheism state that the universe continues to evolve, and suffering is a part of evolution towards the perfection.


neither of which are a religion. But i would say the underlying theme of evolution is not perfection but rather CHANGE TO SUIT CURRENT NEEDS.

Quote:
All those religions offered consistent answer aligned with their beliefs systems. Suffering is caused by imperfection. These religions or system of believes have the assumption of imperfect gods, imperfect men or imperfect processes that cause sufferings.It's only God of Judaism and Christianity is a perfect God.


neither of which are the only religions to teach of a perfect god.

Quote:
God if Islam is not known to them. For the post part they are guessing who he is.


the same god as the jews and christians

Quote:

In other words they all have no challenge with suffering. But my God is challenging God because He is alive.


that is debatable


Quote:
Remember, alive = suffer.


again i say the question is "why". If there is nothing to gain from suffering for those who will never learn of Christianity then why does god allow it.

remember alive only ='s suffering if god says so because he is the law maker according to your beliefs.


so what happens to those who died before jesus? do they go to hell? if not then why?
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 08:51 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
so what happens to those who died before jesus? do they go to hell? if not then why?


If they never heard of Jesus, they will be judged based on their consciousness.
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 08:55 am
@marcus cv,
Could God have the ability to be perfect but have the all powerful will to choose not to be?:confused:
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 08:57 am
@Musky Hunter,
Quote:
Could God have the ability to be perfect but have the all powerful will to choose not to be?


No, it would deny who He is.
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 09:01 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;61013 wrote:
No, it would deny who He is.


If there is something that God can not do, does that not also deny who He is?
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 09:19 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;61008 wrote:
If they never heard of Jesus, they will be judged based on their consciousness.


Are you sure? where does the bible say this?
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 10:07 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;61017 wrote:
Are you sure? where does the bible say this?

Romans
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 10:08 am
@Musky Hunter,
Musky Hunter;61025 wrote:
Romans


romans what?
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 10:25 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;61026 wrote:
romans what?


Romans 2:13-15

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 10:47 am
@Musky Hunter,
Musky Hunter;61029 wrote:
Romans 2:13-15

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


so would you say "good works" get you into heaven?
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 01:53 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;61033 wrote:
so would you say "good works" get you into heaven?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 04:25 am
@Musky Hunter,
I see nothing about heaven in any of these quotes you have given, so how can you say that simply living a "life of the book" even without knowledge of the bible can get you into heaven? Especially when according to the bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus?
Musky Hunter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 12:02 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;61082 wrote:
I see nothing about heaven in any of these quotes you have given, so how can you say that simply living a "life of the book" even without knowledge of the bible can get you into heaven? Especially when according to the bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus?


I did not say it. Romans 2:13-15 did.
 

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