Suffering in the world

@Fatal Freedoms,

Quote:

Does that mean no christian has ever died in a holocaust? And why would god allow non-christians to die horrible deaths before they can learn about jesus?

Of course Christians died during the Holocaust, from 3 to 5 millions Christians.They didn't have to die to learn about Jesus. But death and suffering is a part of existence. We all die and we all suffer, except it works for good for Christians. There is a purpose and meaning of suffering for a Christian person.

Quote:

What about native tribesmen who are in complete isolation from the rest of the world, does god allow them to suffer for something that is not their fault?

It's not their individual fault, it's by definition, alive = suffer

Quote:

So do you think all suffering is justified on some level?

That's a good and difficult question. Again for Christians it is, there are references in the New and Old Testament for that. And I provided verses earlier indicating what benefits can it bring.
[SIZE="1"]It is to make us like Christ (Heb 12:9)
To drive us closer to God (1 Pet 4:14)
To produce the fruit of patience (James 1:3-4)
To teach us (Psalm 119:67)
To purify our lives (1 Peter 1:7)
To Glorify God (Phil 1:19-20)
To prepare us for the kingdom (2 Tim 2:12) [/SIZE]

For non Christians it's justified by their disobedience to God. (I know it's a harsh statement)

As a conclusion, we all suffer but the purpose of suffering is different.

1 Reply

@marcus cv,

So then what is the purpose of people who suffer that have never heard of jesus?

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

to find God

1 Reply

@marcus cv,

marcus;60867 wrote:

to find God

Most People people have found god, although their god my differ from yours. But the question is "can god ethically allow people to suffer who for whatever reason has or will never hear of jesus or christianity"

and on another note what happens to people who died before the spread of Christianity?

0 Replies

@marcus cv,

marcus;60275 wrote:

I agree with your post, but how would you respond to the critic who can't reconcile God and suffering to co-exist.

That's the logic they follow:
1. If God all good and all loving God exist, suffering does not exist.
2. Suffering exists.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.

If God (as we understand God to be) is all (as we understand all to be) good (as we understand good to be) and all (see above) loving (as we understand loving to be) suffering (as we understand suffering to be) does not exist (as we understand existence to be).

But you see, we humans, do not have that much understanding.:dunno:

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

Quote:

But you see, we humans, do not have that much understanding.

Not that simple in our days. :rollinglaugh:

Being enlighten and educated we know at least as much as God, probably even more Wink

1 Reply

@marcus cv,

Quote:

Most People people have found god, although their god my differ from yours.

Their God is different, because He is imperfect, that's their explanation for the suffering. The ancient religions of Mesopotamia believed that it is caused by multiple gods battling for control. In ancient Egypt, gods were far removed from people. Therefore the moral evil of people caused suffering. In Hinduism, the suffering is associated with the process of reincarnation where a new personality is developed during each life. The suffering is a part of becoming a new person. Buddhism believes that the suffering is in one?s desire. In order to gain release from suffering, one must also be freed from desire. Confucianism suggests that life of man is for the purpose of reaching the perfection and the suffering must be eliminated. Darwinism and Atheism state that the universe continues to evolve, and suffering is a part of evolution towards the perfection. All those religions offered consistent answer aligned with their beliefs systems. Suffering is caused by imperfection. These religions or system of believes have the assumption of imperfect gods, imperfect men or imperfect processes that cause sufferings.
It's only God of Judaism and Christianity is a perfect God. God if Islam is not known to them. For the post part they are guessing who he is.
In other words they all have no challenge with suffering. But my God is challenging God because He is alive.

Quote:

But the question is "can god ethically allow people to suffer who for whatever reason has or will never hear of jesus or christianity
and on another note what happens to people who died before the spread of Christianity?

Remember, alive = suffer.

1 Reply

@marcus cv,

marcus;60982 wrote:

Their God is different, because He is imperfect, that's their explanation for the suffering. The ancient religions of Mesopotamia believed that it is caused by multiple gods battling for control. In ancient Egypt, gods were far removed from people. Therefore the moral evil of people caused suffering. In Hinduism, the suffering is associated with the process of reincarnation where a new personality is developed during each life. The suffering is a part of becoming a new person. Buddhism believes that the suffering is in one’s desire. In order to gain release from suffering, one must also be freed from desire. Confucianism suggests that life of man is for the purpose of reaching the perfection and the suffering must be eliminated.

I didn't not inquire as to why there god is different, simply stating that it/he was.

Quote:

Darwinism and Atheism state that the universe continues to evolve, and suffering is a part of evolution towards the perfection.

neither of which are a religion. But i would say the underlying theme of evolution is not perfection but rather CHANGE TO SUIT CURRENT NEEDS.

Quote:

All those religions offered consistent answer aligned with their beliefs systems. Suffering is caused by imperfection. These religions or system of believes have the assumption of imperfect gods, imperfect men or imperfect processes that cause sufferings.It's only God of Judaism and Christianity is a perfect God.

neither of which are the only religions to teach of a perfect god.

Quote:

God if Islam is not known to them. For the post part they are guessing who he is.

the same god as the jews and christians

Quote:

In other words they all have no challenge with suffering. But my God is challenging God because He is alive.

that is debatable

Quote:

Remember, alive = suffer.

again i say the question is "why". If there is nothing to gain from suffering for those who will never learn of Christianity then why does god allow it.

remember alive only ='s suffering if god says so because he is the law maker according to your beliefs.

so what happens to those who died before jesus? do they go to hell? if not then why?

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

Quote:

so what happens to those who died before jesus? do they go to hell? if not then why?

If they never heard of Jesus, they will be judged based on their consciousness.

1 Reply

@marcus cv,

Could God have the ability to be perfect but have the all powerful will to choose not to be?:confused:

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

Quote:

Could God have the ability to be perfect but have the all powerful will to choose not to be?

No, it would deny who He is.

1 Reply

@marcus cv,

marcus;61013 wrote:

No, it would deny who He is.

If there is something that God can not do, does that not also deny who He is?

0 Replies

@marcus cv,

marcus;61008 wrote:

If they never heard of Jesus, they will be judged based on their consciousness.

Are you sure? where does the bible say this?

2 Replies

@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61017 wrote:

Are you sure? where does the bible say this?

Romans

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61025 wrote:

Romans

romans what?

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61026 wrote:

romans what?

Romans 2:13-15

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

Musky Hunter;61029 wrote:

Romans 2:13-15

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

so would you say "good works" get you into heaven?

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61033 wrote:

so would you say "good works" get you into heaven?

Yes and no. The "good works" that matter are good works or "fruits" of the Spirit. Basically, a living faith will have works because a living faith will have fruits. What matters to God is not what we do so much as the Spirit that we do it in.

Galatians 5:16-23 16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

James 2:14-20

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that?and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?

1 Reply

@Musky Hunter,

I see nothing about heaven in any of these quotes you have given, so how can you say that simply living a "life of the book" even without knowledge of the bible can get you into heaven? Especially when according to the bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

1 Reply

@Fatal Freedoms,

Fatal_Freedoms;61082 wrote:

I see nothing about heaven in any of these quotes you have given, so how can you say that simply living a "life of the book" even without knowledge of the bible can get you into heaven? Especially when according to the bible the only way to heaven is through Jesus?

I did not say it. Romans 2:13-15 did.

1 Reply

Suffering in the world

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know