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Is religion healthy for society?

 
 
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:07 pm
"Religious theists will commonly insist that religion generally, and their religion in particular, are necessary for a healthy and happy society. Some will even go so far as to claim that a secular society which is not founded on religious mythology is one where people don't have enough reasons to be good. These theists are just guessing, though; real research indicates that exactly the opposite is true.

A few hundred years ago rates of homicide were astronomical in Christian Europe and the American colonies (Beeghley; R. Lane). In all secular developed democracies a centuries long-term trend has seen homicide rates drop to historical lows. The especially low rates in the more Catholic European states are statistical noise due to yearly fluctuations incidental to this sample, and are not consistently present in other similar tabulations (Barcley and Tavares).

Despite a significant decline from a recent peak in the 1980s (Rosenfeld), the U.S. is the only prosperous democracy that retains high homicide rates, making it a strong outlier in this regard (Beeghley; Doyle, 2000). Similarly, theistic Portugal also has rates of homicides well above the secular developed democracy norm. Mass student murders in schools are rare, and have subsided somewhat since the 1990s, but the U.S. has experienced many more (National School Safety Center) than all the secular developed democracies combined.

Other prosperous democracies do not significantly exceed the U.S. in rates of nonviolent and in non-lethal violent crime (Beeghley; Farrington and Langan; Neapoletan), and are often lower in this regard. The United States exhibits typical rates of youth suicide (WHO), which show little if any correlation with theistic factors in the prosperous democracies. The positive correlation between pro-theistic factors and juvenile mortality is remarkable, especially regarding absolute belief, and even prayer.

Life spans tend to decrease as rates of religiosity rise, especially as a function of absolute belief. Denmark is the only exception. Unlike questionable small-scale epidemiological studies by Harris et al. and Koenig and Larson, higher rates of religious affiliation, attendance, and prayer do not result in lower juvenile-adult mortality rates on a cross-national basis.

Source: Journal of Religion & Society

If all this weren't bad enough from the perspective of religious theists, there is one additional factor: strong social health correlates not just with low religiosity, but also high rates of acceptance of evolution:

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies. The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a ?shining city on the hill? to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors.

No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developed democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so.

It's certainly not the case that there is a direct link between acceptance of evolution and better social health; instead, it's more likely that there is a close link between acceptance of science and better social health. More acceptance of science, which means a healthier understanding of reality, will for example incline people to adopt better and more effective measures to fight STDs. They will support education and contraceptives, not faith-based abstinence education that place ideology and wishful thinking ahead of rational, scientific programs.

The study points out that there are not only no exceptions ? none at all ? to the negative correlation between theism and acceptance of evolution, but also that there are no significant religious revival movements in nations where acceptance of evolution is high. The authors conclude from this that it may not be possible in practice to combine high rates of religious belief with high rates of acceptance of evolutionary science, even if the two are not necessarily contradictory.

I would go further and suggest that what may not be possible in practice is a combination of high rates of religiosity with high rates of acceptance of science generally. There's nothing special about evolution itself except that it appears to conflict with particular religious beliefs. All of science does this, however, just not in ways that are as immediate or as easily exploitable by religious demagogues. Evolution is thus perhaps a bit like a canary in the mine: if it comes under attack, that's a sign that science generally is threatened.

I see a lot of misunderstandings and errors about atheism and atheists all over the net. People don't understand what atheism is, what the definition of atheism is, or the difference between atheism and agnosticism. People claim that atheism is a religion, that it requires faith, that it's a form of denial, that there are no real atheists, and that there are no atheists in foxholes. This introduction to atheism answers most of the most common questions and mistakes about atheism."





by Austin Cline ( Austin Cline, Guide for the Agnosticism / Atheism Site )
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dattaswami cv
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 11:21 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;60103 wrote:
"Religious theists will commonly insist that religion generally, and their religion in parti...........e most common questions and mistakes about atheism."





by Austin Cline ( Austin Cline, Guide for the Agnosticism / Atheism Site )



Every Religion in this world wants you to get rid of bad qualities at least from today for the admission into that religion which is practically impossible. The reason is that these bad qualities were grown like hills for the past millions of births. This small human life is insufficient even to move them, not to speak of removing them. People can control the bad qualities to some extent by their efforts. These bad qualities are frequently sparking in the minds of even the most pious sages. If one says that he is good and he is devoid of all the bad qualities, it only cheating others, which in turn is cheating oneself. Due to this practically impossible condition, for the religious admission, people have developed allergy towards any religion because the eligibility for admission is impractical.

The religious preachers have confused the whole situation by fusing religion and spiritualism. Religion is the context of GOD to establish peace and justice in this world. In this context, you must control your bad qualities so that you will not disturb the peace and justice and will not harm any good person in this world. If you disturb the world by your bad qualities, God will punish you. But, in this context, it is sufficient if you control the bad qualities since you cannot remove them. The Religion ends here. Some religions strictly end here without any spiritualism.

The spiritualism is the context in which you have to make efforts to reach God. In this context, you need not even control your bad qualities because, God has no personal objection towards your bad qualities. These bad qualities cannot be obstacles in any manner in this context. Moreover, when you turn these bad qualities towards the God, they become your helpers. Any quality whether good or bad, is created by God only to help you in reaching Him. If you realize the original aim of all these qualities, good or bad, why should you control these qualities, which are with you as a helper? No fool controls his helpers. So, any quality when involved in spiritualism is used for its original aim, it becomes a good quality. So all your qualities become good in spiritualism and you need not put any effort to remove or even control them. When the qualities are not used for their original purpose, they become bad qualities. Therefore, whatever qualities turned towards the world, are bad qualities. In this spiritualism, there is no need of any effort even to control these bad qualities.

Then, for what, our effort should be made? Our effort should be concentrated to achieve ?Bhakthi? which is the love on God. ?Bhakthi? is achieved and is grown by the knowledge of God. For example, you came to know that Bombay City exists. This is the knowledge of existence of Bombay. By this you want to see Bombay. As you know the details of Bombay more and more, your desire to see the city becomes more and more. Knowing details about the Bombay City is again the further knowledge. So, knowledge is directly proportional to desire. First Rukmini heard that there is Lord Krishna on this earth. As she heard more and more about Lord Krishna from Sage Narada, her love on Krishna increased enormously. Narada means he who gives knowledge. Therefore, ?Jnana?(knowledge) generates and develops ?Bhakthi (devotion)?. Due to Bhakthi, the Lord is attained. Gita says the same ?ONLY BY BHAKTHI I AM ATTAINED? (?Bhaktya????).
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 09:15 am
@dattaswami cv,
Spiritualism is the belief in spirits and other supernatural occurrences and entities.

religion is a system of dogmatic beliefs usually based on some doctrine enforcing rituals and other practices.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 09:39 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developed democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so.


I would like to see examples of that statement.

Historically speaking empires collapsed with a moral degradation.
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 07:59 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Me too?
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 06:11 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60253 wrote:

Historically speaking empires collapsed with a moral degradation.


Empires collapse because imperialism puts tremendous strain on it's citizenry.

But what you and i consider "moral degradation" might be two very different things.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 06:14 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60253 wrote:
I would like to see examples of that statement.



I can't give you an example of something not happening, the proof is in the lack of such societies.
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:33 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;60310 wrote:
Empires collapse because imperialism puts tremendous strain on it's citizenry.

But what you and i consider "moral degradation" might be two very different things.
But the result is the same.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 12:35 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;60311 wrote:
I can't give you an example of something not happening, the proof is in the lack of such societies.

So you can't substantiate your thought?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Sep, 2008 01:00 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;60340 wrote:
So you can't substantiate your thought?


It is substantiated by the fact there aren't any, if incorrect it should be easy for you to provide a single example which you would've done by now given you were capable.

You can't prove a negative, therefore the negative is always assumed and then discarded when the positive is substantiated. But of course i didn't expect you to know that. Very Happy
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 12:29 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60253 wrote:
I would like to see examples of that statement.

Historically speaking empires collapsed with a moral degradation.


One word: Maya. That empire did not collapse due to moral degradation.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 04:13 pm
@Sabz5150,
The Maya practiced human sacrifice. In some Maya rituals people were killed by having their arms and legs held while a priest cut the person's chest open and tore out his heart as an offering. This is depicted on ancient objects such as pictorial texts, known as codices (singular: codex). It is believed that children were often offered as sacrificial victims because they were believed to be pure.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 08:29 pm
@marcus cv,
marcus;60522 wrote:
The Maya practiced human sacrifice. In some Maya rituals people were killed by having their arms and legs held while a priest cut the person's chest open and tore out his heart as an offering. This is depicted on ancient objects such as pictorial texts, known as codices (singular: codex). It is believed that children were often offered as sacrificial victims because they were believed to be pure.


Does it matter what they did? Does it change the fact that their entire civilization was wiped out by the Christians?

Do you realize that because of what the Christians did, only six codices remain? That's right, the priests burned their books, their entire civilization's history right in front of them. Funny that only the ones depicting the bad things survived... how about their astronomical texts? All gone.

These are the people who calculated the solar year and lunar month down to the SECOND using little more than sticks and mathematics.

Again, does what their culture did change the fact that the Christians wiped them out?
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 03:20 am
@Sabz5150,
If a person who is white and from North American or Europe to go to Africa or Middle East most likely than not he will be considered Christian.
Christians are not those who call themselves Christian or live in a Christian country but who follow Christ commends. And all of Jesus commends are based on love not on destruction. It's about the source, the calling of the believe and not about the title, or a group.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 08:55 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60547 wrote:
If a person who is white and from North American or Europe to go to Africa or Middle East most likely than not he will be considered Christian.
Christians are not those who call themselves Christian or live in a Christian country but who follow Christ commends. And all of Jesus commends are based on love not on destruction. It's about the source, the calling of the believe and not about the title, or a group.


So which is it? Were they Christians taking out a cannibalistic tribe, or Non-Christians slaughtering others? You have simultaneously made an excuse for them, then booted them from the circle for which they needed said excuse.

These people were told to convert or die.
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 11:47 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;60345 wrote:
It is substantiated by the fact there aren't any, if incorrect it should be easy for you to provide a single example which you would've done by now given you were capable.

You can't prove a negative, therefore the negative is always assumed and then discarded when the positive is substantiated. But of course i didn't expect you to know that. Very Happy
So your answer is no.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2008 12:29 pm
@Drnaline,
Drnaline;60594 wrote:
So your answer is no.


Pleas go back and re-read my first sentence, read it another two times if necessary.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 07:15 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
Does it matter what they did? Does it change the fact that their entire civilization was wiped out by the Christians?


On Historical note, Maya collapsed in 9-10th century, they never even heard of Christianity.


Quote:
So which is it? Were they Christians taking out a cannibalistic tribe, or Non-Christians slaughtering others? You have simultaneously made an excuse for them, then booted them from the circle for which they needed said excuse.

These people were told to convert or die.


I see Christians as those who were dying for the cross and not killing others. We all like to take about crusades and scholars estimate that the Crusades of the middle ages cost from 133,000 lives to 1,5 million depending on a historian you will talk to. In 1990 alone over 260,000 Christians were murdered for their faith.
Is religion healthy for society?, You can compare with a non-religious system of communism that killed at least 150,000,000 people in less than 100 years period.

During exploration time everyone was "Christian". We need to remember that as we live in America today, people in those days lived in Christendom. It's only after Renaissance skeptics and atheists become a sizable group.

If you were alive, you were "Christian", for many it was a title. Those men who explored New Land for their own greed, didn't say to their family and friends, "I'm going to go rub and kill people and after I come back I will be rich." No, they were "fighting for the faith", and they made themselves believe in it. But the they didn't know and did not wanted to know what the faith is.

What is the Christian faith?

2 John 1:4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Walk in love, that is the Christianity faith.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 07:41 am
@marcus cv,
marcus;60679 wrote:
I see Christians as those who were dying for the cross and not killing others.


NTS fallacy

Quote:
We all like to take about crusades and scholars estimate that the Crusades of the middle ages cost from 58,000 to 133,000 lives. In 1990 alone over 260,000 Christians were murdered.


How many Christians do you think die everyday in the United States? What you have is a stacked statistic, it assumes their religion has anything to do with their death. Whereas the crusades where motivated and driven by religious zealotry.

Quote:
Is religion healthy for society?, the answer is yes. You can compare with non religious system of communism that killed at least 150,000,000 people in less than 100 years period.


This is an unfair compassion for a few reasons

1) the earth was significantly less populated in the middle ages.
2) There was less capability to kill people during the middle ages.

Hitler is probably the most infamous person on earth even though he killed less people than Stalin, the reason for this is simple. Hitler committed genocide, he killed people because of their race, religion, sexual orientation and mental capability (the handicapped). Hitler killed people discriminately while Stalin killed indiscriminately. Stalin killed anyone that disagreed with his policies or his practices.




Quote:
During exploration time everyone "was Christian" we need to remember that as we live in America, people in those days lived in Christendom. It's only after Renaissance skeptics and atheists become a sizable group.
But those guys who explored new land for their own greed, wouldn't say to their family and friend, I'm going to go rub and kill people come back in couple years rich. No, they were fighting for the faith. But the point is they didn't know the faith.


Few religions do teach massacres, but people do them anyway. Whether people misunderstand their faith is irrelevant to the atrocities caused by those people.

Marcus do you know what the difference between you and a crusader is? The crusader takes everything in the bible as word-for-word as literal inerrant truth. This is the same problem Muslims have today, they take their texts as literal truth, while moderate Muslims do not.
marcus cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 08:42 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Quote:
Marcus do you know what the difference between you and a crusader is? The crusader takes everything in the bible as word-for-word as literal inerrant truth. This is the same problem Muslims have today, they take their texts as literal truth, while moderate Muslims do not.


I'm very glad that you are pointing to the Bible, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. The Bible is the standard of the Christianity, and the Bible has the authority.

The difference between Crusaders and myself, their time and our time is that that we have the Bible they don't. They were told what to do. The authority was in the hands of man, who were to be faithful. And if they are not, than it has an impact on everyone. Not so in our days.

When it comes to "statistics" I think it would be hard to argue that there are more Christians who caused some one to die than Christians who died because of their faith. Even if we consider that all Christians are Christians. Which I have hard time to accept it.
 

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