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What is Evolution? - A Primer

 
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 05:50 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;51460 wrote:
you mean this?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j311/Grregor/crocoduck.jpg


Crikey! Photo of a Crocoduck in the wild! I think it's safe to assume the photographer was found dead next to his camera... Crocoduck has already spotted him in the picture, and that's a stance that means "KILL".
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 06:20 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;51462 wrote:
Not science so much as speculation. According to FF, the burden of proof would be upon you to prove that life can exist in radically different conditions than ours.


This is exactly what science is doing. Spirit, Opportunity, Pathfinder, Huygens, Viking, all aimed a little bit with the idea of "life might be here". JIMO would have given us our best shot at a close-up look at Europa, but it got canned.

Quote:
Rest of post: I'm not saying there are not many planets that have the possibility, which is different than the probability, of having life. Even a small percentage of planets is what, millions or billions in the universe?


Still, without knowing how life starts, we don't really have a finger on the probability. 120+ planets, moons and other small worlds and we've explored maybe a quarter of a percent of the total real estate.

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The problem is how life gets there. Show me actual life on another planet and I'll reconsider my position.


*fixed for debate's sake.

Working. On. It. Working real hard.


Quote:
Pio of Pietrelcina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though I have said that the other case was from memory, here you go. Very high profile, look under the supernatural phenomenon section.


Whereas that's real neat, actually quite interesting... good read, it is a long way from proving a supernatural existence. If a true case of stigmata pops up... I am quite sure modern medicine will be begging for an investigation. Just because medicine of the time couldn't explain something does not mean modern medicine cannot. We've come a bit of a distance in a very short time.

The problem with using things like stigmata and "bleeding bread", is the same problem that UFO watchers and third kinders have... too many damn hoaxes to weed out in order to get anything substantial. Give me the keys to a loony bin and I'll bring you about 20 candidates for the position of Jesus Christ. Do we bend over backwards to explain why some woman believed her kids were "possessed by the Devil", causing her to murder them? I mean, hey... devil possession... big supernatural and religious thing there.

I pose this question, as I do quite often... show direct "empirical" (Thanks RD!) evidence for the existence of this "creator". Why would every single thing be lined up to show, with evidence, a story so completely different? Why does every bit of evidence gathered point to Evolution? Why does every bit of evidence gathered show the Earth's age at roughly four and a half billion years? Why is there no evidence showing a creator?
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 01:57 pm
@Sabz5150,
Quote:
Working. On. It. Working real hard.


Until it yields results, you can't state for the purposes of argument that it is likely, by much of your own logic.

Quote:
Whereas that's real neat, actually quite interesting... good read, it is a long way from proving a supernatural existence. If a true case of stigmata pops up... I am quite sure modern medicine will be begging for an investigation. Just because medicine of the time couldn't explain something does not mean modern medicine cannot. We've come a bit of a distance in a very short time.


It's not exactly brain surgery, it seems like an inexplicable case even by modern standards if what we know is correct. The problem with keeping everything up to date is that it never works, and with many things, we'll just have to compromise for a close to modern time. I would think medicine was advanced enough to thoroughly explain flesh wounds such as this as well as modern science, if any explanation is possible.

Quote:
I pose this question, as I do quite often... show direct "empirical" (Thanks RD!) evidence for the existence of this "creator". Why would every single thing be lined up to show, with evidence, a story so completely different? Why does every bit of evidence gathered point to Evolution? Why does every bit of evidence gathered show the Earth's age at roughly four and a half billion years? Why is there no evidence showing a creator?


Evolution is fine by me. So is Earth being billions of years old. What do you want me to say, fossils were planted by God to test our faith? I'm saying, I think the idea of a creator of life, not humans specifically, is the best explanation out there.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 04:21 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;51906 wrote:
Until it yields results, you can't state for the purposes of argument that it is likely, by much of your own logic.


As it cannot be said to be unlikely. Schroedinger's aliens.

No, I cannot state an exact likelyhood, given that I lack the same mathematical and scientific data that you do in claiming that such a likelyhood is false.

I can, however, say that by limiting ourselves to preset ideas we run a risk of missing the target, should it exist. Searching for planets similar to ours is always a good choice because we know it works, we know what to look for. However, we really can't say where life can and cannot start.

"...growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally."

That's what defines life. Not where it lives, but what it is.

Quote:
It's not exactly brain surgery, it seems like an inexplicable case even by modern standards if what we know is correct. The problem with keeping everything up to date is that it never works, and with many things, we'll just have to compromise for a close to modern time. I would think medicine was advanced enough to thoroughly explain flesh wounds such as this as well as modern science, if any explanation is possible.


Again, consider our advancement over the years. Medicine and medical procedures only a few decades ago are considered old and outdated. New technology, new research, advancing at a level that it never has before. Something that was unexplainable to us then can be easily explained now.

Quote:
Evolution is fine by me. So is Earth being billions of years old. What do you want me to say, fossils were planted by God to test our faith? I'm saying, I think the idea of a creator of life, not humans specifically, is the best explanation out there.


It's the easiest. However easy is not always correct.

How exactly life started here, nobody will ever know for certain. Any evidence of that has been erased by time.

Where did this creator come from? Where did it go? Why this one planet, why the need to create such an immense universe to harbor so little for such a short period of time? Most importantly... why?
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 06:34 pm
@Sabz5150,
Quote:
Again, consider our advancement over the years. Medicine and medical procedures only a few decades ago are considered old and outdated. New technology, new research, advancing at a level that it never has before. Something that was unexplainable to us then can be easily explained now.


Then explain it by modern standards. The accounts are there. Surely you could use them to find possiblities if not certainties?

Quote:
It's the easiest. However easy is not always correct.

How exactly life started here, nobody will ever know for certain. Any evidence of that has been erased by time.

Where did this creator come from? Where did it go? Why this one planet, why the need to create such an immense universe to harbor so little for such a short period of time? Most importantly... why?


The definition in many cases of the creator is that many of these questions will not be answered, at least until we meet the creator.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 07:51 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;51950 wrote:
Then explain it by modern standards. The accounts are there. Surely you could use them to find possiblities if not certainties?


In order to explain it by modern standards, we need a modern examination of the phenomena. It requires a bit more than pouring over already collected data.


Quote:
The definition in many cases of the creator is that many of these questions will not be answered, at least until we meet the creator.


Your reason for lack of evidence is because that which is in question will only become evident when it decides to show itself?
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jan, 2008 08:09 pm
@Sabz5150,
Quote:
In order to explain it by modern standards, we need a modern examination of the phenomena. It requires a bit more than pouring over already collected data.


It must certainly be possible to at least come up with some possible explanations based on what we know, and if not, I do not see how tests can prove anything.

I'm no expert, but has the examination of mere wounds progressed so much as to make much of a difference in this particular case?

Quote:
Your reason for lack of evidence is because that which is in question will only become evident when it decides to show itself?


Yes, and you may ridicule it from a standpoint of someone who probably uses the scientific method to determine which breakfast cereal to buy, but this is one of the aspects of religious faith, which people accept knowing full well that they're not going to find many answers right now. As you might suggest, be patient and those answers will come eventually.

In any case, the idea of a creator of life seems most appealing to me right now, so I'll accept the consequences of some unanswered questions that come with it.
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 09:04 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;51960 wrote:
It must certainly be possible to at least come up with some possible explanations based on what we know, and if not, I do not see how tests can prove anything.

I'm no expert, but has the examination of mere wounds progressed so much as to make much of a difference in this particular case?


If medicine at the time could not find an answer, then yes, we need more tests. There are plenty of explanations for such things, but to be certain, you have to take a closer look.

If your car didn't run and you gave it your best looking over, then found no explanation for the problem, would you conclude that taking it to a mechanic wouldn't prove anything?

I mean, you've got a phenomena, no real explanation based upon what you know, and you wouldn't run extra tests to find out what's really happening?

Quote:
Yes, and you may ridicule it from a standpoint of someone who probably uses the scientific method to determine which breakfast cereal to buy, but this is one of the aspects of religious faith, which people accept knowing full well that they're not going to find many answers right now. As you might suggest, be patient and those answers will come eventually.

In any case, the idea of a creator of life seems most appealing to me right now, so I'll accept the consequences of some unanswered questions that come with it.


But the unanswered questions concerning the scientific explanation are simply too much to bear? Instead, you choose something that can never be tested or validated and throw all of your chips at it?
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