Is this true. Was Jesus lower than angels?

@Greatest I am cv,

Greatest I am;53008 wrote:

Is this true. Was Jesus lower than angels?

I have always maintained that Jesus was a great prophet and Rabbi but I did not like the idea that He was some kind of hybrid God/Man. I did not give Him divinity for reasons of scripture that did not quite jive. IE He said the time of the end was at hand and it obviously was not.

Hebrews 2-9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Is this true? Was Jesus lower than angels?
How can He be divine in light of this scripture?

Regards
DL

Jesus (peace upon him) was a great prophet. He never calimed to be Divine.

Think of this which is related to your question:

If Jesus was God...

Then how come God needed an angel to strengthen Him !!?

"Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him (Jesus), strengthening Him." [Luke 22:43]

[Luke 22:41-43]
41 And He (Jesus) withdrew from them about a stone's throw, Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. and He knelt down and began to pray,
42saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him (Jesus), strengthening Him."

Angels only strengthen Prophets.

1 Reply

@SWORD of GOD,

SWORD of GOD;53103 wrote:

Jesus (peace upon him) was a great prophet. He never calimed to be Divine.

Think of this which is related to your question:

If Jesus was God...

Then how come God needed an angel to strengthen Him !!?

"Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him (Jesus), strengthening Him." [Luke 22:43]

[Luke 22:41-43]
41 And He (Jesus) withdrew from them about a stone's throw, Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. and He knelt down and began to pray,
42saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
43 Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him (Jesus), strengthening Him."

Angels only strengthen Prophets.

I agree with your view of Jesus. Most would reply to your comment though that that was only the human part of Jesus. Most Christians are wrong on this issue.

Ii don't think I would agree though with angels strengthening prophets. I do not read the Bible literally and do not believe in the more supernatural parts that it speak of. Talking snakes do not exist or fish that spit out people after three days either. No parting seas or genocidal flood.

In my reality Satan is just a catch all name for all evils and woes of the world and angel are just a name to encompass all the good ideas and notions.

God has no need for assistants.

Islam I take it has all these supernatural creatures?

If you believe in the talking snake, could you explain why God would pit an innocent young Eve against a supernatural juggernaut like Satan?

Regards
DL

2 Replies

@Greatest I am cv,

Greatest I am;53107 wrote:

.
.

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If you believe in the talking snake, could you explain why God would pit an innocent young Eve against a supernatural juggernaut like Satan?

Regards
DL

The story of Adam and Eve (Hawwa) in the Quran has no talking snakes (no snakes at all). In the Quran, the burden of the mistake done was shared equally by Adam and Eve (Hawwa). Eve was never blamed alone for that mistake and in fact Adam was more blamed for disobeying God's order. Moreover, Allah (God) had forgiven both of them.

[The Noble Quran 2: 35-37]:

[35] And We (Allah) said: "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight, of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimun (wrong-doers)."
[36] Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time."
[37] Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.

[The Noble Quran 20: 115-123]:

[115] And indeed We (Allah) made a covenant with Adam before, but he forgot, and We found on his part no firm will-power.
[116] And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated themselves (all) except Ibl?s (Satan), he refused.
[117] Then We said: "O Adam! Verily, this is an enemy to you and to your wife. So let him not get you both out of Paradise, so that you be distressed.
[118] Verily, you have (a promise from Us) that you will never be hungry therein nor naked.
[119] And you (will) suffer not from thirst therein nor from the sun's heat.
[120] Then Shait?n (Satan) whispered to him, saying : "O Adam! Shall I lead you to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that will never waste away?"
[121] Then they both ate of the tree, and so their private parts became manifest to them, and they began to cover themselves with the leaves of the Paradise for their covering. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray.
[122] Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance.
[123] (Allah) said: "Get you down (from the Paradise to the earth), both of you, together, some of you are an enemy to some others. Then if there comes to you guidance from Me, then whoever follows My Guidance he shall neither go astray, nor shall be distressed.

0 Replies

@Greatest I am cv,

Greatest I am;53107 wrote:

I agree with your view of Jesus. Most would reply to your comment though that that was only the human part of Jesus. Most Christians are wrong on this issue.

Ii don't think I would agree though with angels strengthening prophets. I do not read the Bible literally and do not believe in the more supernatural parts that it speak of. Talking snakes do not exist or fish that spit out people after three days either. No parting seas or genocidal flood.

In my reality Satan is just a catch all name for all evils and woes of the world and angel are just a name to encompass all the good ideas and notions.

God has no need for assistants.

Islam I take it has all these supernatural creatures?

Regards
DL

The word 'Satan' is coming from the Arabic word 'Shaytan'. Satans are part of 'Jinn' whom are other creatures invisible for the humans and they had been created from a smokless flame of fire. Like mankind, 'Jinn' consist of evil ones (called Satans) and good Jinn :

[14] He (Allah) created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of
pottery.
[15] And the jinn: He created from a smokeless flame of fire.

Satans can occasionally be felt by what they might do to harm people. I guess you call them 'Demons'.

Angels are creatures created from light and can never disobey God. They are invisible to humans but they have the ability to take the forms of people. Prophets received the words of God through the angels.

1 Reply

@SWORD of GOD,

Sounds like Islam is just as full of supernatural creatures as Christianity. Must have been a fad for the ancients.

If one must believe in these to be a good Muslim then I guess I can never be one. I cannot be a good traditional Christian as well.

Your God seems to be as incompetent in creating a perfect world as the Christian one.

Christianity says that all of God’s works are perfect. Do you have the same philosophy for Allah?

Regards
DL

1 Reply

@Greatest I am cv,

Greatest I am;53139 wrote:

Sounds like Islam is just as full of supernatural creatures as Christianity. Must have been a fad for the ancients.

If one must believe in these to be a good Muslim then I guess I can never be one. I cannot be a good traditional Christian as well.

Your God seems to be as incompetent in creating a perfect world as the Christian one.

Christianity says that all of God’s works are perfect. Do you have the same philosophy for Allah?

Regards
DL

Quote:

If one must believe in these to be a good Muslim then I guess I can never be one.

That will be your own choice and you'll be responsible for it in the hereafter (which I guess you don't believe in yet). It is you who must investigate and seek the proofs that may leed you to the truth then you are the one who choose freely his final destiny!

Quote:

Sounds like Islam is just as full of supernatural creatures as Christianity.

Islam is the religion of all prophets sent by God (since Adam). So the true original undistorted messages of all the prophets had come from the same source. Tha's why you may find some similarities between them. The chrsitianity/Juadaism practiced nowadays are both distorted and not the same message sent to both Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all).

Regarding supernatural creatures, if you -in the first place- do not believe in a Creator (God), then it will be nonsense for me to discusee with you here some of his creatures like Angels and Jinn !

Quote:

Must have been a fad for the ancients.

From where did those ancients get some of their beliefs !? Remember the first man was Adam - according to us who believe in God - and he saw the Angels, Jinn (including Satan) when he was in heaven. Adam conveyed his knowledge to his sons after him. With very long time passed after the death of Adam, many people started to distort this inherited knowledge and added fabrications to it, till some of them ended worshiping idols, angels, men and even worshiping Satan.

Quote:

Your God seems to be as incompetent in creating a perfect world as the Christian one.

What does 'a perfect word' mean in your understanding !? With whom you want to compare God with !?

Quote:

Christianity says that all of God’s works are perfect. Do you have the same philosophy for Allah?

You need to answer the previous question first and be more specific about what you mean by "God's works".
But it is not true that christianity/Judaism say that all of God's works (if I understand you correct here!) are perfect becuase in their distorted bible, God was sorry He had made man for example, and God could not find a way to forgive the mankind but to sacrifice his claimed son (Jesus) on the cross... etc.

1 Reply

@Greatest I am cv,

Greatest I am;53008 wrote:

Is this true. Was Jesus lower than angels?

I have always maintained that Jesus was a great prophet and Rabbi but I did not like the idea that He was some kind of hybrid God/Man. I did not give Him divinity for reasons of scripture that did not quite jive. IE He said the time of the end was at hand and it obviously was not.

Hebrews 2-9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Is this true? Was Jesus lower than angels?
How can He be divine in light of this scripture?

Regards
DL

All you need is

Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

However, if that is not enough for some odd reason:

Revelation 1:18: "I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

Revelation 19:16 "On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"

Why does Revelation name the Lord God Jesus Christ as fully God? Because God took on a Divine Human when in the world, and glorified that Human (made it Divine), so that the Divine Human is fully part of God, like the body of a man's soul.

See: The Universal Theology of the New Church by Emanuel Swedenborg

2 Replies

@billcompugeek,

In order to attribute some sort of prophecy or divinity to a person you first need to show their existence outside of their afformentioned religous books.

I will even cite religous sites who try to prove there was a jesus.

So What About Jesus? So What about the historical Proof?

Evidence for Jesus: Historical Proof for the Man Behind Christianity

Both of these sites are as pro Jesus as you can get, randomly picked from the thousands available. Yet neither one is able to draw an eye witness account of jesus, not a singles person has written anything of jesus outside of the Bible, that can be considered first hand historical evidence

Does this not completely astound you? The single greatest occurance of our time, the Son of the God that created the universe, the sun and the earth, the creatures that swim and walk upon this planet, the everything we are today and there is not ONE single eyewitness account.

This man walked, with his 12 desciples across the known world of the time, think of that as well, a few millions in South and North America have no historical evidence of the gods son, nowhere does it state in Aztec, Inca or any of the north American tribes that there was one all powerful god.

He did all manner of great things, healed leppers, cured the blind, enabled the cripled to walk, yet nowhere is this documented outside of the bible. Would you not agree that it should be at least recorded somewhere, one sentance, one little piece of manuscript that indicates an eyewitness account?

Before you consider if Jesus was lower than angels you must first consider if he ever existed.

Numpty.

0 Replies

@Greatest I am cv,

Could you find records for most average Palestinian criminals, even remarkable ones?

1 Reply

@SWORD of GOD,

Sword

If God wants something done, He has no need for angels and demons to do His work. He is responsible for everything anyway.

As ot perfect and perfect works. All we see about us is God's works.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Most Christians wait for God to return to fix what is not broken if this scripture is to be believed.

Is your God more competent or do you also wait for the fix.

By the way, I do believe in God but mine is competent and does not need to redo anything. He gets it right thre first time.

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@billcompugeek,

billcompugeek;53199 wrote:

All you need is

Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

However, if that is not enough for some odd reason:

Revelation 1:18: "I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

Revelation 19:16 "On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS"

Why does Revelation name the Lord God Jesus Christ as fully God? Because God took on a Divine Human when in the world, and glorified that Human (made it Divine), so that the Divine Human is fully part of God, like the body of a man's soul.

See: The Universal Theology of the New Church by Emanuel Swedenborg

If Jesus is divine then the sacrifice was not a real sacrifice was it? It would be just God slumming in human form. He cannot die so dying is not an option for God.

Do you really believe all the words of a Bible that was selected by Constantine to create a coalition of all the various Christian sects of that day.
Were the rejected scriptures not inspired as well?

Regards
DL

0 Replies

@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;53505 wrote:

Could you find records for most average Palestinian criminals, even remarkable ones?

Why?

We are talking about the Son of your God and there is no documented evevidence for him, do you not think it odd then?

0 Replies

@Greatest I am cv,

Quote:

We are talking about the Son of your God and there is no documented evevidence for him, do you not think it odd then?

The people who believed he was the Son of God recorded his actions, life, and existence sufficiently enough.

1 Reply

@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;53523 wrote:

The people who believed he was the Son of God recorded his actions, life, and existence sufficiently enough.

But nobody else, not one single person. Lots of people in the books that make the bible, which was put together 300 years later, not one single eyewitness account of Jesus, only three sweeping references to a 'christ' or 'christus' which mean 'annointed one'.

Are you not the slightest bit intrigued as to why?

1 Reply

@Numpty,

Numpty;53524 wrote:

But nobody else, not one single person. Lots of people in the books that make the bible, which was put together 300 years later, not one single eyewitness account of Jesus, only three sweeping references to a 'christ' or 'christus' which mean 'annointed one'.

Are you not the slightest bit intrigued as to why?

No. The lives of virtually all commoners from 2,000 years ago, even remarkable ones, are not recorded in more than one if any source and many of the other sources they might have been recorded in would easily be lost. The Bible itself (or the books therein) would probably not have survived if they were not the most important texts of a major religion.

1 Reply

@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;53525 wrote:

No. The lives of virtually all commoners from 2,000 years ago, even remarkable ones, are not recorded in more than one if any source and many of the other sources they might have been recorded in would easily be lost. The Bible itself (or the books therein) would probably not have survived if they were not the most important texts of a major religion.

We are not talking remarkable ones, we are talking the Son of God, surely there must be one piece of manuscript somewhere?

1 Reply

@Numpty,

Numpty;53526 wrote:

We are not talking remarkable ones, we are talking the Son of God, surely there must be one piece of manuscript somewhere?

According to a small religious movement in some areas in the Palestinian province, in the eyes of the few people who knew about it. Do you know how much stuff like this there must have been. Small chance of anyone bothering to say something about it until a long time after his death, smaller chance that would survive the Dark Ages, etc.

1 Reply

@Reagaknight,

Reagaknight;53527 wrote:

According to a small religious movement in some areas in the Palestinian province, in the eyes of the few people who knew about it. Do you know how much stuff like this there must have been. Small chance of anyone bothering to say something about it until a long time after his death, smaller chance that would survive the Dark Ages, etc.

There is page after page after page in the bible detailing just about every aspect of Jesus' life, yet nothing else survived outside of the bible, and you have never once thought that to be a little odd. Has it never struck you why there is no evidence outside of the bible?

0 Replies

@Greatest I am cv,

No, and I've said why not.

1 Reply

Is this true. Was Jesus lower than angels?

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