Bloodless Coup in Georgia? 11/22/03--Following Georgia.

Nimh
I've been away and so haven't been reading the posts here. I disagree with your assessment of my post blaming Bush and the republicans for the present problems. If we hadn't frittered away our military power in a ridicules fruitless war in Iraq Russia might have had second thoughts about going full bore into Georgia. We would have had more infulance in Europe which thanks to Bush we have little of at this point. As to wether Georgia was wrong to try to take back the provences that left it I will leave up to the Europeans. You seem to think that most americans want war. Your wrong! Only as-holes like Bush and Cheney and a Republican congress most of whom have never been involved in a war like to project their power through surrogates because they are now and have always been to important to chance getting their ass shot off. And I might add that the Democrats aren't much better when one looks at the last election. The republicans are all balls and the Democrats have none at all. I wish we would elect a congress and a president that used their brains instead of their balls which hasn't happened for 28 years . :wink:

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Lash wrote:

That's what they say is happening...and the Ukraine is challenging Russia re: use of their water space...

Such a scary chess game...every move so potentially dangerous.

Talk about chilling, have you seen Putin's response? I dont have a TV here, but this video popped up on Google News: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfA5XfxQOPw

Doesnt sound like the man will back down any time soon. But at least as worrying, I mean: "As we all know, Saddam Hussein was hanged for burning down several Shi'ite villages"? Shocked

That's, a) some bluster - I mean, come on, the whole idea that Saakashvili is worse than Saddam; this man is not in the mood for reasonable talks or negotiations, obviously; and b) provides a startling look inside his mind - it's obvious he thought the whole outrage over Saddam's crimes was a bunch of exaggerated wussiness, and doesnt see the big deal about someone ruling like he did (which of course involved a whole lot more than just "burning down several villages").

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I'm a bitter gun owner and a proud asshole then.

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Russia Orders Halt in Georgia as Fighting Continues

{like I said I really have no opinion on this situation; but I do find the following from the above link a bit ironic. }

Quote:

Mr. Bush, little more than an hour after returning to Washington from the Olympic Games in Beijing, bluntly warned Russia on Monday that its military operations were damaging its reputation and were "unacceptable in the 21st century."

"Russia's actions this week have raised serious questions about its intent in Georgia and the region," he said. "These actions have substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world, and these actions jeopardize relations with the United States and Europe."

Probably will do more for Russia than anything else.

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Statement of the Civil Society of Georgia

Georgia has been openly invaded by Russian military forces. Cities and villages throughout Georgia are being bombed. Numerous of civilians are being killed, thousands of people are homeless, material damage to the country's infrastructure is devastating.

Georgian citizens are against war. We are being punished for our aspiration to become part of the democratic world. Today our choice to become part of the West is threatened. Russian aggression is a challenge to the international community as well.

We, the civil society organizations of Georgia call for:

[list][*] The World democratic community to take quick and effective measures to stop violence in Georgia;

[*] Armed forces of the Russian Federation to stop their intervention immediately and leave the territory of Georgia.[/list]Every minute is critical for the lives of innocent civilians in Georgia.

Signatures:

1. The Union "21 Century"
2. National Center of Protection from Violence
3. Women Club "Peoni"
4. Multinational Georgia
5. Article 42 of the Constitution
6. Georgian Young Lawyers' Association
7. Constitutional Rights Protection Centre
8. Open Society Georgia Foundation
9. Caucasus Institute for Peace, Democracy and Development
10. The Youth Network Against Intolerance and Discrimination
11. Civil Integration Foundation
12. Civil Participation Centre
13. Javakheti Democratic Development Centre
14. Civil Council
15. International Center on Conflicts and Negotiations

The statement is open for signing.

---------------

Posted around the web, e.g. at:

- Website
- PDF
- Blog

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Quote:

Georgia responds to Russian invasion -- via Blogger

The government of Georgia is using Google to publish its reponses to the Russian invasion

Guardian.co.uk
August 11, 2008 10:12 PM

Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs is still getting out information, despite Russia adding a cyberwar to its invasion of the tiny country: it's using Google's Blogger:

http://georgiamfa.blogspot.com/

Other posts are at the State Minister For Reintegration's Blogger site, which is standing in for http://smr.gov.ge/ when that's not working.

There's also Russian Georgian War, which has an interesting "flag counter" that shows the biggest number of visitors come from Russia.

Fear is evident. Georgia shares a border with Chechnya so it probably has a good idea of what Russia is like.

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nimh wrote:

It was foolish of Saakashvili to try to take South-Ossetia back by force.

I think you're brushing this aside too swiftly. As far as we know, Georgia launched a full out attack on Tskhinvali. The city is almost completely destroyed. Reports about number vary, but go up to 2,000 people who were killed in the initial attack. More than 30,000 refugees have arrived in Vladikavkaz in North Ossetia.

Now, even given the fact that Ossetians and Russians obviously have an interest in overstating those numbers, at least the destruction of Tskhinvali seems to be confirmed.

I'm not sure I would call Saakashvili's course of action merely "foolish".

---

I also think that it's important for the West not to take sides - and by that I mean Saakashvili's or, alternatively, Medvedev's/Putin's side - in this conflict. At least not based on the propaganda spread by both sides.

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The explanation for this war is simple. OIL. Bush should know something about this reason for war.

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I don't think oil is a primary reason...

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What would Obama do?

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If he were wise, he would let the adults continue the discussion. Really, if you've nothing to add on topic, you're just being disruptive.

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It's all Bush's fault.

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roger wrote:

If he were wise, he would let the adults continue the discussion. Really, if you've nothing to add on topic, you're just being disruptive.

I asked a legitimate question - your childish reply is disruptive - please go away.

Again: What would Obama do in this situation?

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H2O_MAN wrote:

roger wrote:
If he were wise, he would let the adults continue the discussion. Really, if you've nothing to add on topic, you're just being disruptive.

I asked a legitimate question - your childish reply is disruptive - please go away.

Again: What would Obama do in this situation?

What situation exactly, waterguy? Elaborate...

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Froomkin really nails the optics issue.

Quote:
Bush's Georgian Betrayal

Back in 2005, speaking before a crowd of more than 150,000 exuberant Georgians cheering "Bushi! Bushi!", President Bush made a promise to the people of that former Soviet republic: "The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."

So where was Bush as Russia launched a major military attack against Georgia? Monkeying around with the U.S. women's volleyball players -- and otherwise amusing himself at the Beijing Olympics.

This is not to suggest that Bush should have sent in the Marines. But his impotence in the face of such a gravely destabilizing move highlights not only his personal loss of stature, but how deeply he has diminished American authority on the world stage generally and, particularly, in the eyes of Russia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/08/11/BL2008081101093.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Cycloptichorn

This tripe deserved no more than it got...what does it even MEAN? So, where is Bush? Does it MATTER WHERE someone is when crap happens? This is just like the small-minded partisan excretions about Bush hiding during the 911 attacks---and trying to make something out of the few minutes he chose to maintain calm and not freak out a bunch of children in kindergarten when he heard the news... It's cheap and meaningless.

He's monkeying around...? hogwash. So--it's NOT to say he should send in the Marines....? But, what IS IT to say? "impotence"?? Impotent to WHAT?? What was suggested? NOTHING. There is not one shred of substance in that ****. Just the same kind of ultra-partisan bilge you are backstroking in...

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What situation?

The current Russia/Georgia situation.

If Obama were president, what would he be doing right now?

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H2O_MAN wrote:

What situation?

The current Russia/Georgia situation.

If Obama were president, what would he be doing right now?

Uhh, er..., um..... uhhh, well...

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You really can't expect Democrats to allow Bush to do anything about the situation
so we should look at how your anointed one will bring hope and change to the region.

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old europe wrote:

I also think that it's important for the West not to take sides - and by that I mean Saakashvili's or, alternatively, Medvedev's/Putin's side - in this conflict. At least not based on the propaganda spread by both sides.

That's what I was thinking as I've been reading about this.

So complicated.

Continuing to read along with this thread, learning a lot, thank you to old europe and nimh especially.

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Lash wrote:

This tripe deserved no more than it got...what does it even MEAN? So, where is Bush? Does it MATTER WHERE someone is when crap happens? This is just like the small-minded partisan excretions about Bush hiding during the 911 attacks---and trying to make something out of the few minutes he chose to maintain calm and not freak out a bunch of children in kindergarten when he heard the news... It's cheap and meaningless.

He's monkeying around...? hogwash. So--it's NOT to say he should send in the Marines....? But, what IS IT to say? "impotence"?? Impotent to WHAT?? What was suggested? NOTHING. There is not one shred of substance in that ****. Just the same kind of ultra-partisan bilge you are backstroking in...

As I said earlier, it's merely about image. Image matters sometimes, but in this case, I don't think Bush (personally) did badly.

I think Cheney went a bit over the top. I think the behaviour of the US ambassador to the UN, Khalilzad, was very questionable. He's a bloody diplomat. Disclosing publicly, in the United Nations, information from a confidential phone call between top diplomats was foolish.

I think it's a good thing that Bush is back in Washington, though.

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Bloodless Coup in Georgia? 11/22/03--Following Georgia.

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