16
   

Bloodless Coup in Georgia? 11/22/03--Following Georgia.

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 12:32 pm
Froomkin really nails the optics issue.

Quote:
Bush's Georgian Betrayal

Back in 2005, speaking before a crowd of more than 150,000 exuberant Georgians cheering "Bushi! Bushi!", President Bush made a promise to the people of that former Soviet republic: "The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."

So where was Bush as Russia launched a major military attack against Georgia? Monkeying around with the U.S. women's volleyball players -- and otherwise amusing himself at the Beijing Olympics.

This is not to suggest that Bush should have sent in the Marines. But his impotence in the face of such a gravely destabilizing move highlights not only his personal loss of stature, but how deeply he has diminished American authority on the world stage generally and, particularly, in the eyes of Russia.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/08/11/BL2008081101093.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 01:07 pm
That's a bunch of stupid hogwash.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 01:11 pm
It all began in Hiroshima 63 years ago, but that horrible moment -- the searing flash and the poison wind -- has not yet ended;
the slow-motion catastrophe is still unfolding,
inside us and all around us.
http://www.chris-floyd.com/
the above author is a decent, critical American and not an easy -chair intellectual.
I respect him.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 01:31 pm
The U.S. government has a long history of egging on other people to slap at Washington's enemies -- then abandoning them when the inevitable slapback occurs. George Bush I's incitement of a Shiite uprising in Iraq in 1991 and his subsquent collusion with Saddam in crushing the rebellion is a prime example. As I said earlier, the American elite's armchair militarists -- like Dick "Other Priorities" Cheney, and George W. "I Quit" Bush -- prefer to slaughter defenseless people in broken-down states, not take on nations with powerful modern militaries.

Then again, there is a long, strong lunatic strain running through the American militarist establishment, a cultish faction that has always longed to unleash "the Big One" on the Russkies or the gooks or the Ay-rabs or somebody out there. The Cheney faction in particular is riddled with adherents of this cult, who, like their leader, measure their manhood by the throw-weight of America's nuclear missiles. Thus every flashpoint on the international scene -- which inevitably involves "American interests," because the American Empire has extended its military and monetary reach into every nook and cranny of the world -- carries with it a disproportionate danger of escalation into annihilation. In almost every case, this threat is extremely low; but it is always there, like background radiation, or perhaps a dormant fever, and must be considered. Especially considering the moral idiots in charge of the "great" powers of our day.

But although there is little chance of extreme escalation in the Russia-Georgia conflict, the crisis has sufficient dangers in itself -- not least the increasing divergence from reality in the American response
http://www.chris-floyd.com/
Cowards with platic bags and soup kitchens should keep their mouth shuts
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 02:04 pm
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 03:23 pm
Lash wrote:
That's a bunch of stupid hogwash.


Nothing like an incisive response to really wow us

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 03:42 pm
The subect is important to discuss.
Are we not matured enough to discuss this topic without mud-slinging and charater assasination.?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:28 pm
Quote:
A Path to Peace in the Caucasus

By Mikhail Gorbachev
Tuesday, August 12, 2008; Page A13

MOSCOW -- The past week's events in South Ossetia are bound to shock and pain anyone. Already, thousands of people have died, tens of thousands have been turned into refugees, and towns and villages lie in ruins. Nothing can justify this loss of life and destruction. It is a warning to all.

The roots of this tragedy lie in the decision of Georgia's separatist leaders in 1991 to abolish South Ossetian autonomy. This turned out to be a time bomb for Georgia's territorial integrity. Each time successive Georgian leaders tried to impose their will by force -- both in South Ossetia and in Abkhazia, where the issues of autonomy are similar -- it only made the situation worse. New wounds aggravated old injuries.

Nevertheless, it was still possible to find a political solution. For some time, relative calm was maintained in South Ossetia. The peacekeeping force composed of Russians, Georgians and Ossetians fulfilled its mission, and ordinary Ossetians and Georgians, who live close to each other, found at least some common ground.

Through all these years, Russia has continued to recognize Georgia's territorial integrity. Clearly, the only way to solve the South Ossetian problem on that basis is through peaceful means. Indeed, in a civilized world, there is no other way.


The Georgian leadership flouted this key principle.

What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity.

Mounting a military assault against innocents was a reckless decision whose tragic consequences, for thousands of people of different nationalities, are now clear. The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force. Georgian armed forces were trained by hundreds of U.S. instructors, and its sophisticated military equipment was bought in a number of countries. This, coupled with the promise of NATO membership, emboldened Georgian leaders into thinking that they could get away with a "blitzkrieg" in South Ossetia.

In other words, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili was expecting unconditional support from the West, and the West had given him reason to think he would have it. Now that the Georgian military assault has been routed, both the Georgian government and its supporters should rethink their position.

Hostilities must cease as soon as possible, and urgent steps must be taken to help the victims -- the humanitarian catastrophe, regretfully, received very little coverage in Western media this weekend -- and to rebuild the devastated towns and villages. It is equally important to start thinking about ways to solve the underlying problem, which is among the most painful and challenging issues in the Caucasus -- a region that should be approached with the greatest care.

When the problems of South Ossetia and Abkhazia first flared up, I proposed that they could be settled through a federation that would grant broad autonomy to the two republics. This idea was dismissed, particularly by the Georgians. Attitudes gradually shifted, but after last week, it will be much more difficult to strike a deal even on such a basis.

Old grievances are a heavy burden. Healing is a long process that requires patience and dialogue, with non-use of force an indispensable precondition. It took decades to bring to an end similar conflicts in Europe and elsewhere, and other long-standing issues are still smoldering. In addition to patience, this situation requires wisdom.

Small nations of the Caucasus do have a history of living together. It has been demonstrated that a lasting peace is possible, that tolerance and cooperation can create conditions for normal life and development. Nothing is more important than that.

The region's political leaders need to realize this. Instead of flexing military muscle, they should devote their efforts to building the groundwork for durable peace.

Over the past few days some Western nations have taken positions, particularly in the U.N. Security Council, that have been far from balanced. As a result, the Security Council was not able to act effectively from the very start of this conflict. By declaring the Caucasus, a region that is thousands of miles from the American continent, a sphere of its "national interest," the United States made a serious blunder. Of course, peace in the Caucasus is in everyone's interest. But it is simply common sense to recognize that Russia is rooted there by common geography and centuries of history. Russia is not seeking territorial expansion, but it has legitimate interests in this region.

The international community's long-term aim could be to create a sub-regional system of security and cooperation that would make any provocation, and the very possibility of crises such as this one, impossible. Building this type of system would be challenging and could only be accomplished with the cooperation of the region's countries themselves. Nations outside the region could perhaps help, too -- but only if they take a fair and objective stance. A lesson from recent events is that geopolitical games are dangerous anywhere, not just in the Caucasus.

The writer was the last president of the Soviet Union. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990 and is president of the Gorbachev Foundation, a Moscow think tank. A version of this article, in Russian, will be published in the Rossiyskaya Gazeta newspaper tomorrow.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081101372.html?hpid=topnews
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:32 pm
Gorbachev
= a person of rare intellectula instincts.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:32 pm
Quote:
Black Sea Watershed

By Ronald D. Asmus and Richard Holbrooke
Monday, August 11, 2008; Page A15

In weeks and years past, each of us has argued on this page that Moscow was pursuing a policy of regime change toward Georgia and its pro-Western, democratically elected president, Mikheil Saakashvili. We predicted that, absent strong and unified Western diplomatic involvement, we were headed toward a war. Now, tragically, an escalation of violence in South Ossetia has culminated in a full-scale Russian invasion of Georgia. The West, and especially the United States, could have prevented this war. We have arrived at a watershed moment in the West's post-Cold War relations with Russia.

Exactly what happened in South Ossetia last week is unclear. Each side will argue its own version. But we know, without doubt, that Georgia was responding to repeated provocative attacks by South Ossetian separatists controlled and funded by Moscow. This is a not a war Georgia wanted; it believed that it was slowly gaining ground in South Ossetia through a strategy of soft power.

Whatever mistakes Tbilisi has made, they cannot justify Russia's actions. Moscow has invaded a neighbor, an illegal act of aggression that violates the U.N. Charter and fundamental principles of cooperation and security in Europe. Beginning a well-planned war (including cyber-warfare) as the Olympics were opening violates the ancient tradition of a truce to conflict during the Games. And Russia's willingness to create a war zone 25 miles from the Black Sea city of Sochi, where it is to host the Winter Games in 2014, hardly demonstrates its commitment to Olympic ideals. In contrast, Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note.


Russia's goal is not simply, as it claims, restoring the status quo in South Ossetia. It wants regime change in Georgia. It has opened a second front in the other disputed Georgian territory, Abkhazia, just south of Sochi. But its greatest goal is to replace Saakashvili -- a man Vladimir Putin despises -- with a president who would be more subject to Moscow's influence. As Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt pointed out Saturday, Moscow's rationale for invading has parallels to the darkest chapters of Europe's history. Having issued passports to tens of thousands of Abkhazians and South Ossetians, Moscow now claims it must intervene to protect them -- a tactic reminiscent of one used by Nazi Germany at the start of World War II.

Moscow seeks to roll back democratic breakthroughs on its borders, to destroy any chance of further NATO or E.U. enlargement and to reestablish a sphere of hegemony over its neighbors. By trying to destroy a democratic, pro-Western Georgia, Moscow is sending a message that, in its part of the world, being close to Washington and the West does not pay.

This moment could well mark the end of an era in Europe during which realpolitik and spheres of influence were supposed to be replaced by new cooperative norms and a country's right to choose its own path. Hopes for a more liberal Russia under President Dmitry Medvedev will need to be reexamined. His justification for this invasion reads more like Brezhnev than Gorbachev. While no one wants a return to Cold War-style confrontation, Moscow's behavior poses a direct challenge to European and international order.

What can we do? First, Georgia deserves our solidarity and support. (Georgia has supported us; its more than 2,000 troops are the third-largest contingent in Iraq -- understandably those troops are being recalled.) We must get the fighting stopped and preserve Georgia's territorial integrity within its current international border. As soon as hostilities cease, there should be a major, coordinated transatlantic effort to help Tbilisi rebuild and recover.

Second, we should not pretend that Russia is a neutral peacekeeper in conflicts on its borders. Russia is part of the problem, not the solution. For too long, Moscow has used existing international mandates to pursue neo-imperial policies. We must disavow these mandates and insist on truly neutral international forces, under the United Nations, to monitor a future cease-fire and to mediate.

Third, we need to counter Russian pressure on its neighbors, especially Ukraine -- most likely the next target in Moscow's efforts to create a new sphere of hegemony. The United States and the European Union must be clear that Ukraine and Georgia will not be condemned to some kind of gray zone.

Finally, the United States and the European Union must make clear that this kind of aggression will affect our relations and Russia's standing in the West. While Western military intervention in Georgia is out of the question -- and no one wants a 21st-century version of the Cold War -- Moscow's actions cannot be ignored. There is a vast array of political, economic and other areas in which Russia's role and standing will have to be reexamined. Moscow must also be put on notice that its own prestige project -- the Sochi Olympics -- will be affected by its behavior.

Weak Western diplomacy and lack of transatlantic unity failed to prevent an avoidable war. Only strong transatlantic unity can stop this war and begin to repair the immense damage done. Otherwise, we can add one more issue to the growing list of this administration's foreign policy failures.

Ronald D. Asmus, a deputy assistant secretary of state in the Clinton administration, is executive director of the Brussels-based Transatlantic Center of the German Marshall Fund of the United States. Richard Holbrooke, U.S. ambassador to the United Nations in the Clinton administration, writes a monthly column for The Post.





http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081001870.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

I gather that these two would agree with the a2k members who have been arguing that Bush has been asleep at the switch.....
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:37 pm
a2k members
are not intellectuals nor soup sipping super humans.
They are rational, analytical, critical humanbeings.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:40 pm
Lash wrote:
South Ossetia "threw off" Georgian rule in the 90s. Are we sure we have the entire story? We may hate the spectre of Russia becoming larger, but isn't the will of the people involved more important?

Not considering this overkill response by Russia....

It's clear that the South-Ossetians do not want to be under Georgian rule and welcome the Russians who keep them out.

What the ethnic Georgians who also lived in South-Ossetia think of that has become largely irrelevant, since the Ossetians ethnically cleansed them out. (Not by far as big a thing as it was in Abkhazia, but it's in the equation.)

It was foolish of Saakashvili to try to take South-Ossetia back by force.

It was also understandable; Georgia became independent in 1991, and immediately afterwards Russia used all its legal and illegal means, involving generous transfers of money and weapons, to insitigate the Ossetians and Abkhazians (and to an extent, for a while, the Adzharians) to in turn break away from Georgia. The result was that Georgia, already a tiny country, lost most of its coastline and a wedge almost splitting the country in half. Any country would be pissed.

At this time there's no realistic path to reintegrate South-Ossetia into Georgia. The people there don't want it, and Russia won't let them.

Saakashvili seems to realise this now, and to realise his mistake. Hence his agreement to an immediate ceasefire. If an agreement could be reached that restored the status ante quo, with Russian "peacekeepers" policing a de facto independent South-Ossetia but retreating from Georgia proper, I think everybody would sigh in relief, including Saakashvilli and the West.

But Russia has not agreed to the ceasefire, or even opened up a path to one. So the question now isn't really anymore, what about Ossetia and the Ossetians - I think even Saakashvili would gladly restore their de-facto independence right now. It's about the threat to Georgia proper.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:51 pm
I've always rather liked Gorby. He has a biased pov, but so do many of us.

At the same time, I got nimh's quote of the TNR paragraphs and much of his background commentary. (Need to read again to absorb.)

I don't know what I think except that I don't like any of this so far and fear worse.

Whoever is trying to clear out other people anywhere... always a problem for me.. horror for land, territoriality, borders. At the same time, I get land, territoriality, borders.

I don't know Georgia's long time history, much less being clear on recent history, and what people have lived in S. Ossetia and the place starting with A for centuries. I just know who has been living there recently. Much prefer no cleansing and cultural diversity (she says naively).

I have some close sympathy for people being runover by Russia. And for people feeling the US foot.

How much of any of this is about the pipeline/Gazprom?

All to say, I'm reading along.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:55 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
And what is it that people would suggest the US does about this - other then diplomatically focusing on it by keeping pressure on Russia, through continued discussion?

If you're asking us, I had some ideas...

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Froomkin really nails the optics issue.

Quote:
Bush's Georgian Betrayal

Back in 2005, speaking before a crowd of more than 150,000 exuberant Georgians cheering "Bushi! Bushi!", President Bush made a promise to the people of that former Soviet republic: "The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."

And he was right to make that speech. What would you have told them? Yes, thank you for your courageous revolution, and for your eagerness to join our Western community of democratic nations, but I'm afraid we can't really do anything for you right now - too close to Russia, you see - so, eh, good luck"?

But this is why you cant just surrender the Georgians to Russia now. The history of Eastern Europe is a graveyard of betrayals. From Chamberlaine's "peace with honor" through to the world powers' divvying up of the region at Yalta, through to encouraging the Hungarians to rise up in 1956 and then leaving them alone when they did.

It's time the West reclaims its self-respect and protects those countries in Eastern Europe that want to be part of the EU, NATO etc, against any potential agression. Promises bring responsibility. This time it was Bush who made the promise, but a President Obama would have spoken the same words. And now you can't just give them up again.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 04:57 pm
The intellectual journalists irrespective of their pay masters are cowards of the first water.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 05:10 pm
nimh wrote:
But this is why you cant just surrender the Georgians to Russia now. The history of Eastern Europe is a graveyard of betrayals. From Chamberlaine's "peace with honor" through to the world powers' divvying up of the region at Yalta, through to encouraging the Hungarians to rise up in 1956 and then leaving them alone when they did.

It's time the West reclaims its self-respect and protects those countries in Eastern Europe that want to be part of the EU, NATO etc, against any potential agression. Promises bring responsibility. This time it was Bush who made the promise, but a President Obama would have spoken the same words. And now you can't just give them up again.


This is naive, China will go to the mat to support Russia on this both because the Chinese fully believe in the ideology of state self determination without international interference, and because of Taiwan (when the time comes Russia will in turn support the Chinese rape of Taiwan). The U.S. is going to take on Russia and China over Georgia???!!!!.......Get real, ain't never going to happen. We offered a lot of cheap words that we never should have said, and those whom we spoke to are going to be disappointed when they finally realize how empty the words were. Ask the Kurds, they know....
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 05:17 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Nimh and OE -

I'm an American Liberal, and I don't think that intervention is exactly the way we want to go at this time. Where the hell is Europe in this? Why don't their Liberals take care of what needs taking care of?


There's no either/or here. The US cant do this without the support of at least some of the big EU countries. And the EU cant do this without the support of the US. Pointing to each other wont solve anything. Basically - what OE just told you re Kosovo.


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Josh Marshall.

Quote:
Beware

[..] To the best of my understanding, the separatism in these 'breakaway' regions of Georgia is not something ginned up by Russia, though certainly they've exploited it in their effort to either reclaim or dominate parts of what was the Soviet Union. And the Georgians themselves triggered this crisis, however 'disproportionate' the Russian response may be.

I dont understand Josh's equivocation that "the separatism in these 'breakaway' regions of Georgia is not something ginned up by Russia" but "certainly they've exploited it". The local, ethnic resentment was there of course, there's no dispute about that. But it was there in the Sudetenland too, so I dont see how this somehow negates the comparison with Czechoslovakia.

It's not as if as long as there was some sincere local conflict in the first place, that means that its escalation wasn't a question of the neighbouring superpower "ginning it up". Without Russian arms and money, there would never have been a de-facto independent state in both South-Ossetia and Abkhazia. Just like the Republika Srpska and its secession was definitely a local initiative, but the Bosnian Serbs would never have been able to start the civil war, besiege Sarajevo and start the wholescale ethnical cleansing of the country without Serbian arms, money and militiamen. Trying to separate these things is futile.

Talking of Bosnia brings up Josh's second para quoted here:

Quote:
This is a vexed part of the globe we're talking about, with a host of overlapping ethnic and separatist conflicts that can make the difficulties of Kosovo and the Palestinian territories seem tractable by comparison. As the standard line goes, my point is not to justify Russian actions. And I should be clear that I have not researched the details of this conflict nearly as deeply as I would now like to. But we should be clear that there are small state actors in the region (Georgia being one of them) interested in making high stakes gambles vis a vis the Russians and they are trying to do it on our dime -- that is, both literally on our dime but more importantly by trying to involve us militarily in their defense.


"This is a vexed part of the globe we're talking about, with a host of overlapping ethnic and separatist conflicts"... does anyone else hear eerie echoes from the handwringing in Western Europe, in particular, but also in the US, circa 1994? The handwringing about those "warring mountain peoples" and "ancient ethnic hatreds" of "the Balkans", and how it's all a mess and perhaps the West should just stay out of it and let them fight out their "ancient feuds"?

You dont hear much anymore nowadays along those lines, and those who argued like that at the time have slinked away. After all, we know how it ended: a civil war, yes, but also one that disproportionally victimised the Bosniaks, who were relatively helpless as they struggled for two long years without outside support, blocked from acquiring weapons by an arms embargo, while the Serbs warred on with weapons, troops and money from across the border. It ended with "Srebrenica".

Sometimes a situation is indeed really complex, and yet you are expected to recognize the salient part anyway. You can face a hornet's nest of local rivalries and antagonisms, in which there are no "good guys" and "bad guys" per se because everyone has some blood on their hands, and still recognize that in the situation at hand, there is a clear aggressor. That, within all the complexity, one side is doing something that is just plain unacceptable, and risks victimising a people in such a way that it will bring you shame if you stand by passively.

That was Bosnia. It's up to the US President and the EU Presidency to recognize that, and do it sooner than it did in Bosnia.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 05:21 pm
Lash wrote:
I don't think the US should speak. The agencies representing the world should be the mouthpiece. What of China??? Have they said anything?


Quote:
Georgia Asks China for Help With Russia

Georgia has asked China to use its influence to push for a resolution to a territorial flare-up with Russia. [..] Georgia's ambassador to China, Zaza Begashvili, met with China's foreign minister to seek support in the dispute with Russia.

Afterwards, Ambassador Begashvili held a briefing for a small group of foreign and Chinese journalists.

Begashvili would not say how the Chinese responded to the call for help. But, flanked by several embassy staff and supporters wearing red arm bands that read "Stop Russia!" he said he hoped China, as a great power, would make the right conclusion.

He says he is sure that China recognizes Georgia's borders, that it is as an independent state, and that it is a member of the United Nations. He says he is sure that China, as a member of the U.N. Security Council, will express its opposition to this aggression against an independent state.

China's Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang issued a statement during the weekend saying the conflict should be resolved peacefully through dialogue.

The statement joined the United States and other countries in calling for an immediate cease-fire.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 07:08 pm
nimh wrote:
Meanwhile, shirking back from opening up full-fronted war with Russia like that, I know more realistically minded pundits would declare me crazy for suggesting it, but at least we could send them weapons, couldnt we? Or even a secret elite unit to help with the trickier stuff..

And again, more level-headed people will probably think it reckless, but couldnt NATO send ships onto the Black Sea for a demonstrative military exercise? Purely to intimidate Russia into checking itself and withdrawing, at least from Georgia proper, and stopping the bombing. I mean, Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey are all in NATO, they're on the Black Sea...

Something, in any case, to send the message that this is not just all beanbag to the West, some backyard problem of theirs that in the end, the West will shrug at and move on..

I mean, even short of that kind of military sabre-rattling, we should massively retaliate diplomatically. Kick Russia out of the WTO negotiation process, where they're close to membership -- the West should be able to block that shouldnt it? Nix the EU/Russia and US/Russia trade agreements that were made in the last four years. Withdraw all ambassadors. I dunno, I'm no expert on this.

What I do know is that Russia is doing this because they think they can get away with this without any long-term harm done to their international position. They're just counting on the West handwringing but ultimately looking away and proceeding with business as regular - again. After all, it's a tiny country, Saakashvili isnt blameless either, it's in Russia's backyard, there's presidential elections going on...

I dont know whether a massive show of diplomatic retaliation would make Russia think again and check themselves, but it might well. They're tired of this pesky Georgian thorn in its side, but it's still a tiny country -- if they have to choose between going back to just suffering it or facing a massive crisis with the West, they might well think again.

We should try, in any case. Use all means short of getting our own army in -- that would already be much, much more than the EU and US have done so far re Russia's meddling. And if it were up to me, stage a show of force in the Black Sea or even start sending in weapons, the way the West shamefully refused to do with Bosnia when it was being overpowered.


In the same vein as dumping them out of the WTO process, Russia can be kicked out of the G-7.

As far as a military show of force, Ukraine should be fast-tracked into NATO and the EU. And NATO should then station a strong presence on the Ukraine/Poland/Baltics front to provide a strong deterrent against any further Russian invasions. As long as Russia is acting like a Stalinist threat to the free world, they should be treated like a Stalinist threat to the free world.

I don't know if it is possible to save Georgia, but I too think we should try.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Aug, 2008 07:20 pm
Re: Did the U.S. Prep Georgia for War with Russia?
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Did the U.S. Prep Georgia for War with Russia?
By Nathan Hodge
August 08, 2008


We tried, but apparently we didn't prep them good enough. Sad
0 Replies
 
 

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