Cycloptichorn wrote:Nimh and OE -
I'm an American Liberal, and I don't think that intervention is exactly the way we want to go at this time. Where the hell is Europe in this? Why don't their Liberals take care of what needs taking care of?
There's no either/or here. The US cant do this without the support of at least some of the big EU countries. And the EU cant do this without the support of the US. Pointing to each other wont solve anything. Basically - what OE just told you re Kosovo.
Cycloptichorn wrote:Josh Marshall.
Quote:Beware
[..] To the best of my understanding, the separatism in these 'breakaway' regions of Georgia is not something ginned up by Russia, though certainly they've exploited it in their effort to either reclaim or dominate parts of what was the Soviet Union. And the Georgians themselves triggered this crisis, however 'disproportionate' the Russian response may be.
I dont understand Josh's equivocation that "the separatism in these 'breakaway' regions of Georgia is not something ginned up by Russia" but "certainly they've exploited it". The local, ethnic resentment was there of course, there's no dispute about that. But it was there in the Sudetenland too, so I dont see how this somehow negates the comparison with Czechoslovakia.
It's not as if as long as there was some sincere local conflict in the first place, that means that its escalation wasn't a question of the neighbouring superpower "ginning it up". Without Russian arms and money, there would never have been a de-facto independent state in both South-Ossetia and Abkhazia. Just like the Republika Srpska and its secession was definitely a local initiative, but the Bosnian Serbs would never have been able to start the civil war, besiege Sarajevo and start the wholescale ethnical cleansing of the country without Serbian arms, money and militiamen. Trying to separate these things is futile.
Talking of Bosnia brings up Josh's second para quoted here:
Quote:This is a vexed part of the globe we're talking about, with a host of overlapping ethnic and separatist conflicts that can make the difficulties of Kosovo and the Palestinian territories seem tractable by comparison. As the standard line goes, my point is not to justify Russian actions. And I should be clear that I have not researched the details of this conflict nearly as deeply as I would now like to. But we should be clear that there are small state actors in the region (Georgia being one of them) interested in making high stakes gambles vis a vis the Russians and they are trying to do it on our dime -- that is, both literally on our dime but more importantly by trying to involve us militarily in their defense.
"This is a vexed part of the globe we're talking about, with a host of overlapping ethnic and separatist conflicts"... does anyone else hear eerie echoes from the handwringing in Western Europe, in particular, but also in the US, circa 1994? The handwringing about those "warring mountain peoples" and "ancient ethnic hatreds" of "the Balkans", and how it's all a mess and perhaps the West should just stay out of it and let them fight out their "ancient feuds"?
You dont hear much anymore nowadays along those lines, and those who argued like that at the time have slinked away. After all, we know how it ended: a civil war, yes, but also one that disproportionally victimised the Bosniaks, who were relatively helpless as they struggled for two long years without outside support, blocked from acquiring weapons by an arms embargo, while the Serbs warred on with weapons, troops and money from across the border. It ended with "Srebrenica".
Sometimes a situation is indeed really complex, and yet you are expected to recognize the salient part anyway. You can face a hornet's nest of local rivalries and antagonisms, in which there are no "good guys" and "bad guys" per se because everyone has
some blood on their hands, and still recognize that in the situation at hand, there is a clear aggressor. That, within all the complexity, one side is doing something that is just plain unacceptable, and risks victimising a people in such a way that it will bring you shame if you stand by passively.
That was Bosnia. It's up to the US President and the EU Presidency to recognize that, and do it sooner than it did in Bosnia.