Energy

You seem to be pretty smart Val, i'll give you that, thanks for your thoughtful reply...

Thermal radiation is not the same thing as nuclear ratiation. There is a thing in physics called the wave-particle duality: radiant energy of all kinds can behave as a particle or a wave - that is mathematical physics gan describe and predict their behavior accurately usine either model.

Radiant thermal energy occupies a lower frequency (longer, less energetic wave) part of the spectrum than radio waves or nuclear radiation, both of which involve more energetic waves of higher frequency (shorter wavelength). All materials radiate thermal energy in an amount proportional to fhe fourth power of their temperature (on an absolute or Kelvin scale). This includes burning coal, burning hydrogen, the sun which warms our planet, and your own body. This radiant thermal energy is what you feel when you place your hand a few inches above a hot stove and it is what burns your skin if you spend too much time at the beach.

So-called nuclear radiation is a very dfifferent thing involving shorter, higher energy waves (or more massive particles). It comes in four distinct forms, conveniently named alpha, beta, gamma, and neutrons.
1.Alpha radiation is essentially a helium nucleus composed of two neutrons and two protons, released from an unstable nucleus. Alpha radiation is potentially highly damaging to sensitive tissue, but has very low penetrating power. A sheet of paper, your shirt, or your skin will block it. It is a hazard only if ingested.
2. Beta radiation is an electron in a highly excited (energetic) state released by an unstable atom. It has limited penetrating power, though greater than alpha, and variable energy levels, depending on the source.
3. Gamma radiation involves very energetic, very high frequency waves (or photons) with great penetrating power. (X rays are low energy gamma rays)Their energy levels are highly variable (from around 2 to 25 EV) , and they can pass through you body, and even a few inches of lead (though they are greatly attenuated by it).
4. Neutrons are elementary nuclear particles (like protons, but without the positive charge). They, like alpha particles are potentially very damaging, but have extremely short lives and travel less than a few feet before they decay.

The great majority (about 84%) of the nuclear radiation you get comes from materials in the crust of the earth and from the sun (including some naturally occurring radioactive phosphorus, carbon, iodine and other elements within your body). The amount varies by location: the two principal variables being altitude (solar exposure) and the presence of rocky granite formations nearby (Radon and other elements). The remaining 16% comes mostly from the practice of medicine (80% 0f the 16%). The remainder comes mostly from commercial products such as TV sets and like devices. The dose from the generation of power from coal and nuclear reactors is but a tiny fraction of the last 3% sliver of the average dose.

If you believe the radiation dose from burning coal and nuclear reactors is too high then you should also give up your TV, smoke detector, electronic wristwatch, i phone and other electronic devices, as far more dangerous. It goes without saying that you should also avoid doctors and dentists.

My last post was an attempt to explain to you the difference between thermal and nuclear radiation.

Heat is transfered from one body to another in any of three ways;
1. By conduction to another body which is in direct contact by the exchange of kinetic energy of their vibrating molecules (temperature is merely a measure of the average kinetic energy of the molecules in an object - and heat flows from the hotter to the cooler object.
2. By direct radiation between two bodies not in contact. The broiler in your oven operates partly by radiation. The resulting heat flow is proportional to the difference of the fourth power of the absolute temperature of the objects. The ice that forms on roads in a clear night is a result of radiation cooling to the clear night sky.
3. Convection involves the acceleration of conduction heat transfer by the steady flow of a gaseous or liquid heating or cooling medium over an object. The flow ensures a constant temperature in the heating/cooling agent. Your convectionoven has a fan that does this.

On what basis do you claim to know this??? You don't even understant high school level physics. Now you appoint yourself as the judge of a world wide conspiracy.

You appear to be skilled in manipulating vapid, unproven generalities, but quite ignorant and inept with obvious facts. Worse you don't even question your lack of knowledge of what you are speculating about.

How the hell do you know?? You don't even know the difference between something that is hot and something that is radioactive.

News flash ! There is no cool air at the bottom of the sea to infiltrate cracks in the cement and later expand if the temperature rises ! With that little detail your whole childish fantasy collapses. You need to develop a little more respect for your truly formidable ignorance (lack of knowledge) and stupidity (lack of interest in aquiring knowledge). Continuing to indulge in these paranoid and highly judgmental fantasies from a position of such ignorance and lack of understanding is truly neurotic behavior.

Perhaps you should seek some treatment.

Do I need to understand high school physics to understand the dangers of this?



Do you need to understand biology in order to breathe?

Do I need to understand entropy and combustion in order to strike a match?

Do I need to understand how oil is drilled in order to understand this:



George there is something about the way you attempt to reason that simply says to me something is not all there.

I would rather be ignorant than indoctrinated...

Does it take a rocket scientist to understand that this:



Is better than this:



This is where you are such a smart ass that you are rendered an idiot....

Tell me I don't understand...

OK I'll tell you. You don't understand the things you so eagerly pontificate about. Indeed you don't appear to have the slightest grasp of the extent and relevance of your ignorance. You even resist patient explanations offered to corect these serious defects.

The smarmy defense you offered here for your ignorance is itself confirmation of the above. Of course you don't need to understand biology in order to breathe. Worms and Frogs can breathe, but they can't design solar cells, or nuclear reactors.

How could you, who don't reason at all, be a judge of the quality of someone's reasoning?

No cool air but thousand of lbs of pressure and salt too... And last I checked water was also comprised of one part oxygen...Which this pressure is much harder on concrete than cold air would ever be. Enough pressure to easily pulverize concert in a short while.

Also microbes that would love to feast on concrete. So in your brilliance and smart physics brain you think these seals will last forever? And your book learned answer of who will pay for them to be replaced thousand of feet under water? YET SILENCE... and stroking your ego...

You missed the point entirely in order to brag about how smart you are. While you would flunk a 3rd grade spelling bee contest...

Salt water is corrosive who knew...

http://www.pondarmor.com/salt-water-corrosion-effects-on-concrete/

No. I would flunk a 3rd grade typing test.

Corrosion requires oxygen and there is very little of that in deep water. Besides the materials in concrete don't corrode. The natural soils at the bottom of the sea also crumble and are fairly easily separated. However the enormous pressure of the water column above them compresses them to a nearly impervious barrier. The concrete plugs are at least equally as strong as the loose material that surrounds them, and become even stronger under compression.

As for microbes, if they like concrete (and I don't know that to be true) the will equally like the silica and calcium that make up the ocean floor - the same materials. Somehow the ocean floor manages to contain the subterranean petroleum.

You are remarkably poor at grasping the essential features of all of the physical problems you have posed here.

One would expect that just random variation would enable you to be correct once or twice. However that's where your closed minded prejudices come in -they enable you to be stupider than one who knows nothing at all..

Water intrusion in concrete "crumbles) concrete when it later freezes and expands, thereby creating tensile stresses within the concrete which fractures it. Concrete has very little strength or ability to resist tensile forces, but is extremely strong and resistent to compression.

The water at the bottom of the sea doesn't freeze ever, so there is no possibility of internal tensile forces or concrete fracture. Indeed the great comprerssive forces from the water column above make it stronger and even more enduring.

You blithely pass over the reality of the physical processes you presume to describe, further mixing up your already very muddled and contradictory concepts of the processes involved.

You don't know about microbes and that concrete as porous as it is would become a colony for them like a sponge.

The point I was making is not if the concrete would corrode but when and who will foot the bill after the billions in profits have been floundered on the decadent lifestyles of the 1%...

Who would be responsible to go down thousands of feet underwater and repair these pipeline breaches in the sea floor bedrock? Thousands of them...

Don't tell me there is no air underwater George (while totally missing the point)... tell me who will pay the bill in ten, twenty years when (not if but when) these concrete plugs dissolve and are no longer plugging the oil from gushing out...

Or will you again tell me it will be too expensive to fix as you have labeled solar power to expensive...

Can't you see the ludicrousness of your propositions and love for dirty energy sources?

Hey, Rex. Bro. Look, I quite often don't agree with George on a wide variety of topics here on A2K. And that's okay, because different opinions are what life is all about.

But he's dead on in this conversation - the things we are discussing (relative levels of pollution, radiation, treatment of man-made materials at pressure depths, etc) require a certain level of scientific knowledge in order to be able to form cogent opinions about them. And certainly to be able to draw conclusions at all regarding both what our species should be doing going forward, and about the motives of those who advocate solutions different to your own.

That being said, some of your answers presented here make it pretty clear that you don't have the proper scientific background to be making such sweeping statements and assertions regarding others motivations. You should understand that by taking the time to write out such long responses, that cover such basic ground, George is actually doing you a favor here - he would be perfectly within reasonableness to simply discount your opinion on these issues.

So why not lighten up a bit? I understand where you are coming from (being a passionate Liberal myself, committed to working on clean energy for our future), but I think that you are missing the mark here.

Cycloptichorn

What I don't know is if microbes like to colonize concrete at the ocean depths. I doubt that you know either. In any event the ocean floor is already comprised of loose material highly compressed by the pressures there. [/quote]

Well if the concrete doesn't corrode or otherwise fail there will be no leaks and no bill for anyone to pay. My strong impression is that the 99% use the petroleun just as assiduously as the 1%.

You are postulating widespread failures that haven't yet occurred (and we have by now accumulated great experience with offshore driling), and for which no obvious failure mechanism can be described - certainly not by you.. You have already amply demonstrated your ineptitude in basic scientific and engineering principles, as well as your evasive persistence in coming up with other equally unrealistic physical scenarios when earlier ones have been demolished.

You just know there's an evil conspiracy out there (presumably by the rich) to destroy the earth and ruin our lives. However you can't describe it; the scenarios you have offered so far are all laughable; and have been patiently refuted and explained to you by others. That done you merely alter your absurd explanations and persist in your theories.

Enjoy yourself.

Thank you Cyclo.

http://www.situbiosciences.com/microbial-induced-corrosion-testing.htm

Excerpt:
It may be surprising, but bacteria readily eat material such as concrete.

It took me two seconds to find this link...

Bla bla bla George talks out of his derriere bull **** crap...

And just in case you don't know this either, there are organisms biologists call extremophiles that thrive in inhospitable environments thousands of feet down deep in sea water...

NOW YOU KNOW GEORGE, MICROBES READILY EAT MATERIAL SUCH AS CONCRETE...

Why did you give your opinion rather than just Google it first?

I'll tell you why...
Besides you having terrible spelling and/or typing skills you apparently have poor skills at searching for information on the web. This just shows me you have not developed them. Much learning is required in developing these skills. Besides some basic horse sense intelligence... Which I consider you sorely lacking in also. Have you steadily been on the internet for over 20 years?

Could you quote where I have amply shown my lack of scientific knowledge?

Something like,
"Duuhhh, I don't know if bacteria eats concrete...."

Do you know what modulators, carriers and envelope generators are George? Feedback loops, mixing schematics? Can you use a soldering iron?

Have you ever rebuild a carburetor, alternator/generator or replaces the rear seals in an automobile engine? Have you ever unbolted a transmission in a car? I have removed transmissions, Do yo know what a cross-member is? I have rebuild carburetors on my kitchen table and replaced head gaskets and hauled many engines out of cars..

Well if you have not then (using your same logic) you must not be mechanically inclined. THIS IS "SCIENCE" TOO...

How about LFO waves and frequency modulation? Do you known most sound generation algorithms? Ever heard of a DX7? These are things I have been working with nearly every day for the last 40 years...

Well if not then you must not be very good at wave table technology. THIS IS "SCIENCE" TOO...

Do you even know what a sound card is and how long have you known what a sound card is? Do you know what company invented the sound card without looking it up?

Do you know what your computer has for a graphics and sound modules?

COMPUTERS ARE "SCIENCE" TOO GEORGE...

I will even surmise my high school grades in geometry and chemistry were better than yours...

You seem oblivious to the fact that not only did I go to private schools, I had a B+ in chemistry and straight A's in geometry covering three different schools that I attended. I have mentioned that more than once on this forum. My teachers would not even let me solve geometric proofs in the class 'till everyone else had had their try... I rarely encountered a proof I could not solve.

I know of Maxwell's equations and Bessel functions, and I knew about quarks over 20 years ago... Though I do not consider physics as my long suit.

At age 15 i had nearly 100 a theorems, postulates, correlaries, assumptions, and axioms memorized...

I also have my English languages prepositions memorized and still remember them to this day and the form of the verb "to be"....

Sorry if you are drowning in this big word soup George...

I can also build a computer from scratch and I can repair any PC no matter what the problem is... I am also proficient at removing computer viruses of nearly any variety..

Does that sound like someone who is a layman in science and basic education?

I own copies of James Burke science series I have watched the entire series perhaps 30 times over.

"The Day the Universe Changed" and the "Connections" series 1, 2 and 3. I have owned them for a number of years.

I bet you don't even know who James Burke is or James Watt rather and a whole slew of other scientists and inventors...

James Burke is attributed with creating the greatest science series ever made.

Nobody knows everything. Can you tell me off hand the chemical composition of ethanol George? How many moons does Saturn have?

Your arrogance is not only juvenile but it negates the point you make by obliterating it with ignoramus conservative talking points where it seems not a single thought you have is actually, "original".

Can you build a computer from scratch George? Have you ever even loosened the screws on the back end or even figured out how the cover comes off?

Have you ever had the company Intel send you a free complimentary mother board just because they though you were a cool guy?

Can you hook up a power supply harness in a computer? Can you configure hard drives and CD roms?

COMPUTER "SCIENCE" GEORGE.

I think this and many other demonstrable skills I have entitle me to blather if I want about other fields of science that I may not "yet"have a complete grasp on without your 3rd grade spelling getting in the way...

Why don't you go take a spelling class and leave the discussion for people with firm grasp of the English language?

How about software, are you proficient at video editing software?How about sound creation software and editing? I bet you can't even name the software that is used to create multimedia...

Do you have a thousand friends on Facebook, nearly two thousand on Google+, a thousand on Twitter and 20 thousand followers on Tagged not to name many other sites and blogs? I do...

I also assume you don't even know the actual definition of of the word "multimedia..." I'll give you an hint, it was defined by the Dutch company Phillips and the Japanese multinational conglomerate Sony...

The next time you don't know the answer to something I might suggest Google... rather than just saying you don't know, then running your mouth about how superior your scientific knowledge is.

I don't agree with George and that is my prerogative.

His only solution is oil, coal and gas...

First off we cannot maintain that type of approach forever and secondly it ignores many other sciences that have been bowled over by capitalistic corporate profits...

How about you tell George to lighten up instead, he is the one calling me stupid while supplying no real science to back up his claims....

Other than, "Uhhh duhhh the is no cold air underwater." While, insulting my father's intelligence...

I will lighten up when he gets off his high horse...

As for who foots the bill, consumers have already paid for the gas once at the pump. How many times in the future are we expected to pay for the same gas again when it is these companies that have gone to such great lengths to exploit these resources while raking in unheard of profits never seen before in all the history of capitalism.

While according to George's conservative talking points, "solar energy is too expensive..."

While the oil companies pay government inspectors to "look the other way"...

And the gulf is still not cleaned up...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/29/bp-guilty-plea-gulf-oil-spill_n_2571785.html

From 4 days ago...

20 billion for just "ONE" pipe letting go while thousands are still on the sea floor with no solid plan for perpetual care. AND THE COST THEREOF!

While great world renowned physicists and experts in the cost of things like George say, "I don't know if microbes eat concrete or not."

Yes George some of the same proprietary microbes let loose in the wild by BP in their oil dissipating mix that "eat oil" yet too secretive for us to know what is actually in the mix....

It is not like it is Colonel Harland David Sanders secret recipe.

George do you know what is too expensive?

http://tippecanoegreen.blogspot.com/2008/12/useless-plastic-crap-item-of-december.html

Useless plastic items. Something to get lodged in the bill of a pelican or stuck in the throat of a seal...

As if using a knife to slice a banana is just too much work...

Without that item I can slice six peeled bananas at once with a single cutlery knife.

Indeed it is.

That's not true. I have never written any such thing here. If you are referring to our energy and clean air problems, I would include all available solutions, including nuclear.. However I would not subsidize or mandate the use of systems that don't work like ethanol, or systems that don't come close to competing economically, like wind and solar. The chief effect of the subsidies and mandates for wind and solar power is to make these industries dependent on the continuation of the mandates and subsidies, by destroying the economic incentive for technological innovation to reduce their cost.

What is your solution? It appears to be only wind and solar. Worse you simply don't address the impossibility of power production at the needed scale from these sources

Please be specific. What science has been "bowled over" by capitalistic corporate profits??? This sounds like yet another of your unsupported assertion based on your own fantasies. On the contrary my strong impression is that capitalistic corporate profits have been the main driver for a great deal of our teshnological progress on a wide variety of areas, ranging from mechanized agriculture, to transportation systems and vehicles; electronics and computing, textile manufacturing



I have indeed been very critical, as you say. However you offer so many half-baked ideas here, many recognizable by a high school student as contrary to the laws of physics: and then ignore easily verified factual information that is offered to you - at some length I might add ; and merely go on to offer yet another loonie argument to support your prejudicial beliefs. I have offered you plenty of specific scientific information here, and you have simply ignored it. It seems to me that this assertion is a bit disingenuous, ... or simply a lie.

Your father was right about the potential for freezing water to fracture concrete if there are fissures allowing it to penetrate. It was his son who mindlessly assumed the same process wouold occur at the bottom of the sea.

I'm not a renowned expert, and it's true I don't know if there are microbes in the sea that eat concrete. Unlike you I admit what I don't know. I do know that the materials in concrete are very similar to the sandy materials on the sea floor and it hasn't been eaten up yet.

I am well aware of the bacteria that consume petroleum and other organic compounds. I run a company that does environmental science and many cleanup operations, including petroleum contamination of groundwater plumes. A technique we frequently use to cleasn up such groundwater contamination is to inject some nutrients (often diluted molasses) into the ground , then follow with special cultures of bacteria and let the critters multiply and do their work on the petroleum. It's a relatively cheap, non intrusive and very effective clean up technique. Indeed naturally occurring bacteria caused the petroleum in the Gulf to be broken down far more quickly than was forecast.

Instead of pouting like this and resuming your fantasy monologues, I suggest you do some real study and inform yourseld on these matters and the science behind them. It's no harder than reading the blogs and propaganda sites where you get your materials, and the effort just might make you less sappy and juvenile than you are.