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Enlightenment - discussion

 
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:13 pm
@pondfish,
pondfish;140766 wrote:
You can manifest any answer to make you look sane. Bottom line is humans are idiots you are one for them.

You may ask you also idiot by that definition , you need to understand i am not human and i do not exist.

You can masturbate with any belief you want , it is never about any beliefs , it is always about energy balance in your body.

Beliefs only make you waste your time. You are another gullible follower of hindu mumbo crap.

Humans are always idiots when he discovered the words and language. Because he is prisoned by words , language and beliefs.

Ask questions , never agree or disagree.


here's a couple questions:
why would you join a forum and indulge in the practice of language? if you say language imprisons human beings, that is your belief. you say beliefs imprison human beings. so your beliefs do not imprison you because you are not a human being?
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:48 pm
@salima,
Post withdrawn for the time moment.
0 Replies
 
pondfish
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:15 am
@salima,
salima;140951 wrote:
here's a couple questions:
why would you join a forum and indulge in the practice of language? if you say language imprisons human beings, that is your belief. you say beliefs imprison human beings. so your beliefs do not imprison you because you are not a human being?



My words are crap!. All words are crap in one perspective.

The narrower your perspective , you see God in everything. The broader your perspective , you will see you do not exist.

Words has limits. It can not go beyond its limits. Human can only recycle same crap with new labels.

His experience is same as 2000 years ago. Nothing is changed. That is why even 2000 year old philosophy sounds good.

Humans are imprisoned by words.

You need to come out of the bubble of belief bundle.

You have to detach from all beliefs before you see.

You can own only when you disown.

You can only exist when you do not exist!.

All reversed in a way.

You all are in a rabbit hole.

There is nothing called enlightenment...it is just a baloney ...like smoking pot ....

You still dump next day ...that say something about enlightenment...Frauds.

Humans always manifest answers...this and that just to validate his beliefs. Pity the fool.

All humans are idiots. No exception.

I am not human and i do not exist. My words do not exist either.:detective:
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:47 pm
@vinasp,
Pond,

You may not exist. I guess I will have to take your word that you are not a person of substance.

But, it is obviously to me, and probably to most other people here, that your ego is alive and well, and growing with every word that shows up here under your nom de plume. ; ^ )

Smiles,
S9
0 Replies
 
wildlife
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 05:19 pm
@pondfish,
pondfish;146093 wrote:
My words are crap!. All words are crap in one perspective.

The narrower your perspective , you see God in everything. The broader your perspective , you will see you do not exist.

Words has limits. It can not go beyond its limits. Human can only recycle same crap with new labels.

His experience is same as 2000 years ago. Nothing is changed. That is why even 2000 year old philosophy sounds good.

Humans are imprisoned by words.

You need to come out of the bubble of belief bundle.

You have to detach from all beliefs before you see.

You can own only when you disown.

You can only exist when you do not exist!.

All reversed in a way.

You all are in a rabbit hole.

There is nothing called enlightenment...it is just a baloney ...like smoking pot ....

You still dump next day ...that say something about enlightenment...Frauds.

Humans always manifest answers...this and that just to validate his beliefs. Pity the fool.

All humans are idiots. No exception.

I am not human and i do not exist. My words do not exist either.:detective:



:detective: Very Happy they say message too short ?
0 Replies
 
Michael Ducey
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 05:06 am
@vinasp,
Some buddhists use the term "sanity" to talk about "enlightenment", since all that it is is being aware of exactly how things are. The technique for acquiring sanity is generally meditation. I've noticed several people whose description of meditation is essentially the same: Chogyam Trungpa, Gurdjieff (in Charles Tart's book Waking Up), Gene Gendlin (Focusing), Peter A Levine (Waking the Tiger), and Kurtz and Ogden's Hakomi. They all say that meditation uses "the felt sense".
So, this kind of meditation is not just thinking. It's an exercise in awareness. Thinking just uses the neo-cortex. Awareness uses the whole brain. I think that for Krishnamurti, meditation is only thinking. So there is a choice to be made here.
I have more about this on my blog Beginner's Mind
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 09:47 am
@vinasp,
Michael,

I believe that some types of meditation are used in order to familiarize us with something (I also call it Awareness), which is previous to our thoughts, more fundamental than the brains functioning.

If Awareness were to be a function of the brain, even the whole brain, it would still be subject to space and time and therefore only temporary or what the Buddhists call impermanent. I have witnessed that Awareness is the Immediate Constant, and is not subject to time or space. Awareness is what some have called, “the Non Abiding.” It is in fact not subject to any of the properties of mind.

So that Enlightenment would not be Liberation of the mind, but rather Liberation from the mind, and All of her (Psyche's) concepts.

S9
Michael Ducey
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 10:16 am
@Subjectivity9,
That is not my experience, at all.
Maybe if you describe for me what your meditation practice actually is, we can bridge this difference.
I describe my practice on my blog Beginner's Mind .
P.S. I am not finding much information about you on your public profile. I would like to know your location, etc.
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:29 pm
@vinasp,
Michael,

I went over to your blog and read some, not all of it yet. Let me share a few of my feelings/ideas about what I read there with you.

I can see that using your bodies sensations as your object of attention could be very useful to getting an in depth picture of what is going on within the body. I do this myself to some extent. But, I also sometimes use my mind as my object of attention, or my actions as another object of attention. This is not to say what you are doing as a practice is wrong by any means, but the important ingredient in this picture I believe is attention.

Yet, even attention is a process, which is allowed to take place within Awareness. (The attention would be the wave and Awareness would be the Ocean, these two not being synonymous in the sense that the wave is only taking place temporarily and the Ocean is Eternally Present.)

Awareness is neither a noun, nor is it a verb, but rather the very foundation of both of these, the life's breath). Awareness is trans-mind. Awareness when seen correctly requires no object outside of Its Self.

Granted the mind seeks its own sanity because “Suffering Is.” But Awareness, on the other hand, being trans-mind does not suffer, simply because in the dimension of One there is no thing (no mind object) to either gain nor to lose, there is no other.

My location is always Here and Now. ; ^ )

Peace,
S9
Michael Ducey
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 02:50 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Actually, your location is Tennessee.
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 05:10 pm
@vinasp,
Michael,

Only the body/mind of S9 is locatable in the dream we affectionately call the material world. I am not that. ; ^ )
Twilight Siren
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 11:54 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;151826 wrote:
. . . .
If Awareness were to be a function of the brain, even the whole brain, it would still be subject to space and time and therefore only temporary or what the Buddhists call impermanent. I have witnessed that Awareness is the Immediate Constant, and is not subject to time or space. Awareness is what some have called, "the Non Abiding." It is in fact not subject to any of the properties of mind.

So that Enlightenment would not be Liberation of the mind, but rather Liberation from the mind, and All of her (Psyche's) concepts.

S9


So, could this "awareness" be like detecting stimuli (of undefined sorts. . ), in a similar manner to which the brain would . . but outside of the actual brain function, and independent from the brain . . ? So then, to help me understand . . .where is it that you theorize this "awareness" comes from? How are we "taking in" this "stimuli"?

(sorry, I use quotations a lot, it's usually when I can't think of a more appropriate word to use. Vocabulary can sometimes be so limited in getting my idea across!)

Subjectivity9;151901 wrote:
. . . . I can see that using your bodies sensations as your object of attention could be very useful to getting an in depth picture of what is going on within the body. I do this myself to some extent. But, I also sometimes use my mind as my object of attention, or my actions as another object of attention. This is not to say what you are doing as a practice is wrong by any means, but the important ingredient in this picture I believe is attention. [1]

Yet, even attention is a process, which is allowed to take place within Awareness. (The attention would be the wave and Awareness would be the Ocean, these two not being synonymous in the sense that the wave is only taking place temporarily and the Ocean is Eternally Present.) [2]

[Awareness is neither a noun, nor is it a verb, but rather the very foundation of both of these, the life's breath). Awareness is trans-mind. Awareness when seen correctly requires no object outside of Its Self.

Granted the mind seeks its own sanity because "Suffering Is." But Awareness, on the other hand, being trans-mind does not suffer, simply because in the dimension of One there is no thing (no mind object) to either gain nor to lose, there is no other[3]. . . .


1. I actually sometimes find it useful to switch up where I put my "attention" , from time to time, in meditative practice. It can be a useful "exercise" . . . . I feel like it help with that "awareness" thing you're talking about.

2. The way you put it there, helps clear it up for me . . . a bit.

3. . . .and then you lose me again a little, here!

Subjectivity9;152028 wrote:
Michael,

Only the body/mind of S9 is locatable in the dream we affectionately call the material world. I am not that. ; ^ )


Oh, snap! . . They told you! :sarcastic: . :poke-eye:. . . . . . .(Just playin' :bigsmile:)
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 01:54 pm
@vinasp,
TS,

Awareness is not the same as stimulation, because it does not happen TO us. Awareness is exactly who/what we are with nothing added and nothing taken away ever, so that in this way, “Awareness” is both its own subject and its own object. “Awareness of Awareness is what Awareness is,” through the sheer experience of Selfhood.

We live from and in Awareness. This may be difficult to comprehend by the mind, because Awareness does not include the ingredients, or defining factors, of space and time. The Buddhist refer to this as Thusness or simply ‘Is–ness,’ which doesn’t really add anything except perhaps the concept of non-change and non-motion, or what I have often called “All-At-Once-ness.”

Awareness does not mimic the mind, but just taking place somewhere else, as the mind deals dualistically with everything, separating everything up into pieces, like cause and effect, for instance, which obviously containing the ingredient of a time sequence. It also has concepts like coming and going which creates impermanence within each ingredient of the mind, like past/present/and future, or “here today and gone tomorrow,” not to mention an all time favorite birth and death.

Awareness on the other hand is the Eternal Present, and it is Complete in Its Self. Awareness is not in need of any additions and has no agenda. Mind is constantly becoming, whereas Awareness is Pure Being, and IS what it has always been and will Always be.

Because Awareness is so very constant, you can pick up on it before, behind, between, and after every thought. It is the screen behind every action. Simply look directly at what you experience constantly without change, your very sensation of Selfness, (Me-ness), unwrapped of its ego stories and definitions, right Here/Now in the Immediate Moment or Eternity, all of the time, but so very subtle, so understated, that we overlook It.

I will answer your other questions when time allows,
S9
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 06:23 pm
@vinasp,
TS,

Let me speak a bit further about #3, where you say you lost me, in order to help make myself a little better understood.
: ^ )

Very often we try to capture Awareness in words and concepts. But it is actually quite impossible to do so. Words can only point at where you must look, intrinsically, in order to experience the same thing that I have witnessed.

This is because Awareness is not a group activity that can be shared among friends, or even written about in its wholeness. Awareness is more intimate than that, and takes place within our intimate solitude.

Zen Quote: "Don't look at my words. Look where they are pointing."

Awareness is not just one more thing, among many, within our mind of multiplicity. Awareness is 'One' without another. Because of this, the mind cannot see it, thinks of it as empty, and yet is conscious of it as a kind/of Intuitive Presence.

Your very Presence is Awareness. All objects are merely imaginary, and they dance before your eyes. This dance is somewhat hypnotic and draws us into it. If we lose ourselves in the hypnotic dance or dream that is going on, we begin to identify with all of these imaginary things, saying, “I am the body, I am the Mind, and I am events like sadness," etc. This is a mistaken view or "False Identification."

When the Buddha “Woke Up,” he simply disentangled himself from this hypnotic dream, and knew who and what he was not.

Quote: “In knowing who we are not, (dis-identifying with illusion), we know ‘Who’ we are.”

Our first big hint that something wasn’t right, the big problem that we couldn’t ignore as much as we would like to, was the fact that “Suffering is.” In trying to get this “monkey off our back,” we started out on a Spiritual Path, which could only end in our own Wholeness. We are healing the separation from our own Self.

Many have said that this yearning to be free of suffering, this need for the meaning behind our suffering, and this yearning to understand what the hell is going on, IS our Buddha Nature drawing us home.

When our true nature is revealed, and we know who we are, this IS Liberation. We are not trying to free our mind so much as; we are trying to be free from the mind. The mind in its very nature is a burden, because it has not got the capacity to be content once and for all. The mind lives in perpetual dis-satisfaction. Granted it can grab a little pleasure once in a while, but this can never be maintained, and so mind is a bumpy ride of constant ups and downs.

Our hearts grow, "sick of this unto death." Paraphrased, Kierkegaard.

It is the very perpetual separation (dualism) that takes place within the mind, which refuses to be healed.

Warm Regards,
S9
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jul, 2011 10:38 pm
Nice quotes. The finger pointing to the moon is another way to state your quote about looking where the words point, not just at the words themselves. It reminds me of the caveat that when Jesus pointed the way we mistakenly suck his finger for comfort.
0 Replies
 
 

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