0
   

Enlightenment - discussion

 
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Feb, 2010 02:16 pm
@vinasp,
Buddhist meditation does change the way the brain operates. Of course so do intoxicants and stimulants. But the changes brought about by Buddhist meditation are more beneficial and longer lasting. The operative factors are insight and equanimity. Insight is 'direct perception' into the way in which the interaction of thought and feeling causes unhappiness. By perceiving it as it is, one can be free of it. Equanimity means being less affected by circumstances and changing moods. Both these factors are increased through meditation, or 'dhyana'.
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 07:53 am
@vinasp,
Sneer,

The way that I see meditation is that it helps us in two major ways that are very practical. It helps us to direct our attention and it reacquaints us with our more subjective self, which in good part has been pretty much neglected.

We actually live in 2 perspectives simultaneously, the inner and the outer world. A 3rd world is Spiritual, but I won’t get into that right now.

I think in the very beginning of meditation, we first learn that mind habitually follows the strongest stimulation in the room. (Even if a pin drops.) We need to train are minds much like we would a very young child, how to apply attention and not to just be pushed around by the minds habits of distraction.

In a way, we sit on the cushion, take on a particular posture, and demand absolute quiet sort of like a ritual, because rituals are more stimulating than just watching mind, and they also give us permission to change.

After a while however, as we gain some skill in directing our own attention, we begin to realize that we aren’t doing anything on that cushion that we couldn't do all day long, whenever we remembered it. So we take meditation off the cushion and out into our lives, using everything in life as an opportunity to grow through this directed attention.

We no longer need a cushion, a posture, or even quiet in order to meditate. Meditation becomes a way of life.

Warm Regards,
S9
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2010 12:30 pm
@Subjectivity9,
sure, that is the story of the 100th money. that is what i was counting on, that as enough people reach a certain level of perceptive ability it will carry over to the rest of humanity. no one knows what the percentage is that is needed to force a change. it is a valid possibility if one believes in the collective consciousness or a connection between others. (i do)

but i think there are other hints that it is possible-like different civilizations that discovered the same things or processes without ever having had any contact. maybe it only points to a certain path (hopefully an upward path) along the scale of evolution which exists almost independently of those on it...in other words, an unavoidable direction or goal to be reached along all the possible lines.

Subjectivity9;124117 wrote:
hi salima,

Did you ever hear this story about some monkeys (I think they were monkeys or maybe baboons, anyway) it seems that they had been eating their food for many decades with never once washing them b/4 hand.

One day this precocious little guy goes down and washed his food, with everyone looking on, but not following his lead. Slowly they all started to wash their food too, never again eating it without washing it. I imagine it tasted better.

There were other monkeys of the same sort that lived on islands so separate from them that they never mixed. But one day, they all started washing their food too, with no explanation. It makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Peace,
S9
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 07:19 pm
@vinasp,
Salima,

There seems to be three theories about what some have called the ‘Golden Age.’

There is one idea that the ‘Golden Age’ is part of a cycle, and that there have been many ‘Golden Ages’ that have come and gone.

Because of this, depending upon the time frame, one could easily be looking back at this phenomenon of a ‘Golden Age,’ and trying hard to hold on to/remember and not to lose its lessons too quickly.

Or if the time frame was different, we might easily be looking forward in order to progress into this Golden Age once again.

Others believe that this is more of an individual thing, or that some people are having their ‘Golden Age’ right now (Enlightenment), and that others are not. This is the idea that we humans are at all different levels spiritually at the same time, and merely mixed together.

A third group believes that both of these are going on simultaneously. They think that some of us may be running ahead (even leading the way to Enlightenment), but at some point, like you have said, there will be a critical mass and all the remainder of humanity will fall into place (become Enlightened).

I believe like you do that we are influenced in many subtle and unseen ways by each other, constantly, and most of these are little understood. But, I am not sure that this means that we are walking in lock step as a species towards a better tomorrow. In other words progress may be mythical.

Further:

It may be that this earth is like the first grade of spiritual education, where souls come to learn certain lessons, and graduate after a while into a second grade of spiritual education. But, that this planet pretty much always remains this same first grade, and changes little. How would we know this?

Warm Regards,
S9
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 08:17 pm
@vinasp,
When I was much younger I went to a weekly talk by a member of an Indian religious sect called the Brahma Kumaris. They acquainted me with the concept of Vedic cosmology - that everything moves through cycles - Golden age, siliver, bronze, then iron (I seem to remember). Iron age is Kali Yuga, age of darkeness, where they seemed to think we were.

I didn't take this teaching on but it impressed me at the time, and I think there is some truth expressed by it. Also I think the collective consciousness of H Sapiens is changing. It is not a new age myth, it really is a new age. The victorian/materialistic outlook really has been shot to pieces by quantum theory and modern cosmology and generally, the Indic cosmology of cyclical creation and descruction and different phases of consciousness is closer to the truth.

There is a global enlightenment going on. In numbers, those who are engaged in it are probably very small, but it is having a massive influence, I am sure of that.
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 10:51 am
@vinasp,
Jeepers,

I’m thinking that the idea of progress is a much-favored human myth. Perhaps we need this concept in order to put up with the difficulties of life, because it gives us hope and purpose.

I believe when we look around at what is taking place, there is a good argument for this world going to hell in a hand-basket, with wars all over the world and Global warming da/da da da.

Perhaps things need to reach a crisis state in order to create a leap in evolution, I can’t rightly say. But there are certainly two sides to this issue.

Warm Regards,
S9
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Feb, 2010 08:25 pm
@vinasp,
indeed there are, and many vicious, evil and stupid tendencies among people, as well. But there is a global awareness developing of a type that was unthinkable 50 years ago. OK call it the new age. The dawning of the age of Aquarius. I'm OK with that. I think it is happening, because I am surfing it.
0 Replies
 
chad3006
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 11:57 am
@vinasp,
Just a few years ago, I believed there was a global awareness happening. But lately I've had to step back from that. I'm presently gathering some perspective. I'm not completely sold on global awareness. Perhaps it's true, perhaps not.
I'm no less committed to my personal awareness, but for reasons I don't completely understand, I had to drop some of those notions I was carrying. To use the surfing analogy, I must understand that I'll "wipe out" from time to time, and I should try to learn something each time. It's a fiberglass jungle out there.
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 07:41 pm
@vinasp,
Jeepers,

All though history, there have been periods when one might easily see a good deal of change taking place, or even what some might call a leap in certain directions.

Yet, it would very much depending on your attitude, and what you are wishing for, whether you could define these times as a great good, or a terrible loss of something precious.

Is this Age of Aquarius, not also a time when huge numbers of species have been depleted into extinction?

S9

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 08:54 PM ----------

Chad,

I don’t believe that growth in wisdom is a steady march forward. Very often in life we will spend some time treading water, or even only hoping not to drown, because everything we have used as a life raft up until this point has suddenly disappeared.

These, of course, are the times just before new doors of opportunity and understanding open up to us.

I have also found that during these times when we take one step back, in order to get our feet under us, we are actually gathering great strength and it can often be followed by a sprint into all new territory.

But isn’t this what makes life an adventure?

S9
Twilight Siren
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 02:33 pm
@Subjectivity9,
I was very busy recently, and am catching up. Please pardon the length of what is coming . . .

chad3006;123020 wrote:
...
When I was about 16, I became aware of the interconnection of all things. It was kind of a feeling like "everything in the universe is in its place or everything is as it should be." This lasted about two years. Then when I entered the "real world," I lost this feeling. I'm currently on the path to re-accepting things as they are, but on a more mature level (I know more now than I did at 16-in a way.) I currently have not come to back to that somewhat blissful state of awareness I had earlier. ..


I've definitely had some moments like this. This is why I've recently started carrying a small journal around, on my person, and filling it with poetry and quotes that remind me, and inspire me on my "path." I look at it in my spare time (on the bus, lunch break, etc.) or when I feel myself "losing sight" of these "feelings". Having no such thing, currently, for yourself. . .try to recall, if you can, what it was that first brought you to this "realization" when you were 16. I'm sure that your life circumstances were quite different from adolescence.



salima;123273 wrote:
hi chad
for me too the bliss never came back but i stopped looking for it a long time ago. also it takes a lot to keep centered while being in the 'real' world. that's where the choice of a routine or spiritual path is valuable.[1]

i know too it isnt regarded much in the world, doing the right thing. for a long time i also thought there was no right and wrong, though i would choose to do what would more often be considered 'right'. eventually i came to believe there is always a right and wrong, though it changes all the time and it isnt the same for everyone. but it is its own reward.[2] . . .


1. So true.
2. Also true. There have been many times, in the past, where I thought that there that doing good was getting me nowhere (long story!). I gave up for a while, but eventually decided that it's worth it, as long as it made even the slightest positive change for someone, or if I learned something in the process.


jeeprs;123333 wrote:
my experience is that if you're lucky enough to have genuine spiritual awakenings, there is nevertheless a lot you have to do, paradoxically enough. I always had this idea of 'seek first the kingdom of heaven then everything else will be added' which in some ways is true, but life has its own trajectory - I guess this is karma. There are unpaid bills and many things that need doing and the only way out is through it all. AND I get harassed by my own weaknesses which 'Mara' is very quick to exploit (speaking kind of figuratively.) Nowadays whenever I make an effort to commit to practise, mara has a way of stopping me in my tracks - happened again this week. So I keep remembering - Right Effort is really important at this point.


Exactly, it's the hard times, the trials that test our will and willingness to "sacrifice" or "suffer", in return for the chance to grow, and to strengthen our resolve.

Subjectivity9;123517 wrote:
...
The reason that I ask that is, because, I have heard others speak of an afterglow set up by meditating heavily, sometimes at retreat, and of losing it on returning home to the job and the screaming kids. : ^ (. . . .[1][2]

So, what I am getting at here, and its about time, is that you have to find a place deeply within yourself where peace abides all of the time and is untouched by circumstances. This is your 'Essential Self' that you become reacquainted with and can never lose it. Of course it is always with you, is with you right now, but we so easily overlook it, and mask it from ourselves.[3]. . . .


1. I think that it's learning to keep hold of that "high" or "afterglow", when returning from a retreat, etc. that's one of the most important parts of the "realizations" you may have come to, while on the retreat. It's easy to feel oneness and peace, surrounded only by "like-minded" , in the beauty of nature, feeding off of each others "highs"

2. Even though we are all part of "One", we each have our own energies, vibrations, and frequencies. I feel like you tune into others' frequencies more easily when you are all physically close and putting your mind to the same goal or action.

3. I absolutely love what you said here. I am putting it in my little book of inspiration I mentioned. I hope this does not boost your ego too much and damage any progress!!!! . . . . (just kidding with ya!!) So far though, the book only has famous poets, philosophers, etc. in it though.

sneer;124157 wrote:
. . . .
As I understand my friend (who systematically meditates) and i.e. S9 post, this is the way of changing the way brain works. Fine. I have many more other ways to do that, but why meditation is so very special, then?

Sorry for being so straight, realistic, ignorant and - maybe offtopic. Hope, one will answer me.


There's no shame in being honest in a place for questions to be answered! I think it's very appropriate.

My personal answer is this: it is because you have found this change, within yourself, and from the Universe, and the energies thereof. These "changes" (I feel) come from "truth" (only word I can think to use here) and not intoxication. Your intoxication will end, but this "high" is a part of you now, and you can access it anytime, any place, absolutely free of charge. No hangovers, no cottonmouth, no withdrawals, no costly habits or lowered inhibitions, or next-day regrets.

jeeprs;124173 wrote:
Buddhist meditation does change the way the brain operates. Of course so do intoxicants and stimulants. But the changes brought about by Buddhist meditation are more beneficial and longer lasting. The operative factors are insight and equanimity. Insight is 'direct perception' into the way in which the interaction of thought and feeling causes unhappiness. By perceiving it as it is, one can be free of it. Equanimity means being less affected by circumstances and changing moods. Both these factors are increased through meditation, or 'dhyana'.


Well-said.

Subjectivity9;124341 wrote:
Sneer,

The way that I see meditation is that it helps us in two major ways that are very practical. It helps us to direct our attention and it reacquaints us with our more subjective self, which in good part has been pretty much neglected.

We actually live in 2 perspectives simultaneously, the inner and the outer world. A 3rd world is Spiritual, but I won't get into that right now.

I think in the very beginning of meditation, we first learn that mind habitually follows the strongest stimulation in the room. (Even if a pin drops.) We need to train are minds much like we would a very young child, how to apply attention and not to just be pushed around by the minds habits of distraction. [1]

In a way, we sit on the cushion, take on a particular posture, and demand absolute quiet sort of like a ritual, because rituals are more stimulating than just watching mind, and they also give us permission to change. [2]

After a while however, as we gain some skill in directing our own attention, we begin to realize that we aren't doing anything on that cushion that we couldn't do all day long, whenever we remembered it. So we take meditation off the cushion and out into our lives, using everything in life as an opportunity to grow through this directed attention. . . We no longer need a cushion, a posture, or even quiet in order to meditate. Meditation becomes a way of life.[3]


Great stuff.
1. A great way of putting it.
2. I think it also has something to do with strengthening the mind-body connection. You put a lesson, or feeling (or whatever) into your physical/muscle memory. It's been proven that this is a very effective way of learning.
3. Thus are the results of effective "self-training"

Subjectivity9;124982 wrote:
Salima,

There seems to be three theories about what some have called the 'Golden Age.' [1]

I believe like you do that we are influenced in many subtle and unseen ways by each other, constantly, and most of these are little understood. But, I am not sure that this means that we are walking in lock step as a species towards a better tomorrow. In other words progress may be mythical. [2]

Further:
It may be that this earth is like the first grade of spiritual education, where souls come to learn certain lessons, and graduate after a while into a second grade of spiritual education. But, that this planet pretty much always remains this same first grade, and changes little. How would we know this? [3]


1. This reminds me of the stories of Atlantis. How it was supposed to have been a city of great knowledge, wisdom, artistry, magicks and purity . . a "utopia". It (I heard) was said to have been brought down (by mother nature, war, whatever it was) when corruption made itself known. This may be an example of a "Golden Age". It is for me.

2. I don't think the progress is great enough (yet!!) to be termed as any sort of "world-progress", but I feel it is partly our duty to influence (but not force) this progress to come into being. Live as an example.

3. Interesting theory. Maybe second grade isn't on this "world" at all.

jeeprs;124985 wrote:

Also I think the collective consciousness of H Sapiens is changing. It is not a new age myth, it really is a new age. The victorian/materialistic outlook really has been shot to pieces by quantum theory and modern cosmology and generally, the Indic cosmology of cyclical creation and descruction and different phases of consciousness is closer to the truth.

There is a global enlightenment going on. In numbers, those who are engaged in it are probably very small, but it is having a massive influence, I am sure of that.


You make a good point. We know some much more about the world these days (scientifically speaking) that has much in common with ancient thought. Quantum Theory and new discoveries about the Human Energy Field are examples of this. I think there's definitely some progress, undeniably.

chad3006;126478 wrote:
Just a few years ago, I believed there was a global awareness happening. But lately I've had to step back from that. I'm presently gathering some perspective. I'm not completely sold on global awareness. Perhaps it's true, perhaps not.
I'm no less committed to my personal awareness, but for reasons I don't completely understand, I had to drop some of those notions I was carrying. To use the surfing analogy, I must understand that I'll "wipe out" from time to time, and I should try to learn something each time. It's a fiberglass jungle out there.


I love your analogy!
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 07:32 am
@vinasp,
Twilight Siren,

Perhaps the “afterglow” from a retreat, because it is such a good feeling, grabs the attention of our minds. But, I believe that the “afterglow” is bound to fade, simply because it arrived or isn’t something constant.

Anything that arrives within your mind has to finally dissipate, eventually, because the mind cannot hold on to anything indefinitely, and is by nature continuingly becoming or changing. In other words because the “afterglow” was born in time, it will of necessity also die giving the passing of time.

I believe what we are looking to rediscover is behind the “afterglow,” beneath all mental experience. It is behind, or foundational, even essential to every single moment of our lives. Yet it, (this Golden Thread), is so very subtle that we constantly overlook it.

Our mind wants constant sensation and stimulation, which is a little like a noise barrier, obstruction, to what we are actually seeking. We are seeking release or a little peace away from ‘the noise of monkey mind.’

An afterglow is just one more noise, distraction, albeit a pleasant noise, a little like music might be. We enjoy it, and are taken up by it, at least temporarily, and we continue to overlook ‘Pure Awareness,’ which is our Real home.

Warm Regards,
S9
pondfish
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 07:38 am
@vinasp,
There is nothing called enlightenment as such. But what it means really is become light head or empty head.

To be empty head is easy.

Ask question , never agree or disagree.

Humans are more obsessed with words than what actually it meant.

Bliss , enlightenment etc are just words conman(godman) uses to trap weak humans in his net.

if you are greedy , you will get trapped.

You all need to understand , there is no easy way out. Easy way always end up in trouble.

Live for the body , not for the host belief in your body.
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 08:22 am
@vinasp,
Pondfish,

P: There is nothing called enlightenment as such. But what it means really is become light head or empty head.

S9: I hope that you have the wisdom and insight to realize what you are saying in just one man’s opinion, nothing more. : ^ )

P: To be empty head is easy.

S9: I don’t believe this is the case. So many people put years into trying to arrive at this goal. There are some trance states that claim this accomplishment of both emptiness and silence.

Coincidently, I just read this morning about the impossibility of a silent mind/body.

It seems there is an anechoic chamber made out of 6 walls of special material, a room without echoes at Harvard University.

A fellow said this, ”I entered one and heard two sounds, one high and one low. When I described them to the engineer in charge, he informed me that the high one was my nervous system in operation, the low one my blood in circulation.”

Well, so much for empty silence ever being accomplished as any kind of goal in this living body. ; ^ )

P: Ask question, never agree or disagree.

S9: You forgot, sit at the back of the room, and keep your mouth shut, while looking around knowingly. ; ^ )

P: Humans are more obsessed with words than what actually it meant.

S9: I am obsessed with words, among other things, like great wisdom gained from the words of great sages down through the centuries, and 'hot fudge Sundays'. ; ^ )

P: Bliss, enlightenment etc. are just words conman (godman) uses to trap weak humans in his net.

S9: Not me though, because I know better than to "swallow anything whole," no matter who says it. I have spent many decades investigated completely into these wise words, and have thereby enjoyed a personal experience of their truths.

P: if you are greedy , you will get trapped.

S9: Everyone is greedy for his or her own happiness. See Aristotle.

P: You all need to understand , there is no easy way out. Easy way always end up in trouble.

S9: I am not sure that giving up, before looking deeply into something is an easy answer, either. A complete lack of trust, leading to absoltuely no effort, certainly is a recipe for despair.
: ^ (

It is often our brightest and best who have a problem with depression, at least in the beginning; that is until they kick themselves in the rear end, and get moving in a promising and productive direction.

Being hopeless isn’t synonymous with being clever.

P: Live for the body, not for the host belief in your body.

S9: The body won’t save your, from sickness, old age, or death. Only the very young can overlook this fact. : ^ (

Warm Regards,
S9
0 Replies
 
pondfish
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 08:10 pm
@vinasp,
You can manifest any answer to make you look sane. Bottom line is humans are idiots you are one for them.

You may ask you also idiot by that definition , you need to understand i am not human and i do not exist.

You can masturbate with any belief you want , it is never about any beliefs , it is always about energy balance in your body.

Beliefs only make you waste your time. You are another gullible follower of hindu mumbo crap.

Humans are always idiots when he discovered the words and language. Because he is prisoned by words , language and beliefs.

Ask questions , never agree or disagree.
William
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 08:44 pm
@pondfish,
pondfish;140766 wrote:
You can manifest any answer to make you look sane. Bottom line is humans are idiots you are one for them.

You may ask you also idiot by that definition , you need to understand i am not human and i do not exist.

You can masturbate with any belief you want , it is never about any beliefs , it is always about energy balance in your body.

Beliefs only make you waste your time. You are another gullible follower of hindu mumbo crap.

Humans are always idiots when he discovered the words and language. Because he is prisoned by words , language and beliefs.

Ask questions , never agree or disagree.


Hello pondfish and it seems as though you are truly representing your belief structure. As much as I try I can find no sense to what you say. I don't mean that in a degrading way, because I think you have reason to think the way you do. It, to me seems sad, if one has no beliefs, language or words that pretty much makes them other than human. A rock seems appropriate? At any rate good luck in finding anyone who will agree with your assumptions. :flowers:

William
0 Replies
 
pondfish
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 08:56 pm
@vinasp,
see ....

This is about how you think.

Why do you want anyone to agree with you?. Because you think you are correct?.

you may ask if you do not think you are not correct why do you even say stuff?.

It is simple.

You have to be ready to see things. Doors are at every step , you just have to be ready to see. if you are not ready , you will walk past it.

Sad or Happy is the way your belief react with respect to it. Only person to be sad about it is me , not you .


But again i am not simply because i have no belief to react in anyway. I only see others , i do not see myself. I see through others fears and weakness. It is easy.

if you want to waste your time and kill your life in another rabbit hole of belief crap ...go ahead...you are not the first one...6 billions humans does that every day.

All are monkeys!.
0 Replies
 
Twilight Siren
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 01:08 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;139899 wrote:
Twilight Siren,

Perhaps the "afterglow" from a retreat, because it is such a good feeling, grabs the attention of our minds. But, I believe that the "afterglow" is bound to fade, simply because it arrived or isn't something constant.

Anything that arrives within your mind has to finally dissipate, eventually, because the mind cannot hold on to anything indefinitely, and is by nature continuingly becoming or changing. In other words because the "afterglow" was born in time, it will of necessity also die giving the passing of time.

I believe what we are looking to rediscover is behind the "afterglow," beneath all mental experience. It is behind, or foundational, even essential to every single moment of our lives. Yet it, (this Golden Thread), is so very subtle that we constantly overlook it.

Our mind wants constant sensation and stimulation, which is a little like a noise barrier, obstruction, to what we are actually seeking. We are seeking release or a little peace away from 'the noise of monkey mind.'

An afterglow is just one more noise, distraction, albeit a pleasant noise, a little like music might be. We enjoy it, and are taken up by it, at least temporarily, and we continue to overlook 'Pure Awareness,' which is our Real home.

Warm Regards,
S9



ah . . .I like what you're saying here.

Thanks. :rolleyes:
0 Replies
 
Subjectivity9
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 07:15 am
@vinasp,
Pond,

What makes you think that what you think is true, isn’t just YOUR BELIEF that they are true, based on some often 2nd hand facts, which you also believe to be true?

S9
0 Replies
 
pondfish
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 08:48 am
@vinasp,
It is never about me telling the truth or a lie. It is how you percieve with respect to your belief system.

You have to find yourself out. Ask questions , never agree or disagree with what i say.

Host belief likes to agree or disagree in order for it to stay in your brain adding references.

You are a slave. All humans are slave to host beliefs.

Except i do not exist. Smile
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 09:14 am
@vinasp,
pondfish wrote:
Ask questions , never agree or disagree with what i say.


Well, I'm going to go ahead and disagree anyhow:

You do exist.
0 Replies
 
 

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