Tool

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus;73462 wrote:

Well, there is one thing that Danny Carey plays that none of the other drummers listed play--the tabla. The tabla is a notoriously difficult drum to master, and Danny Carey has been progressing in his playing of it over the last couple Tool albums.

Ya, those drums are amazing even when played by someone who doesnt even know how to use them. I think Danny used them during Tool's more recent tours but I havent seen any vids on youtube or anything so idk...

Edit: scratch that, I meant the mandala drums.

0 Replies

@Yogi DMT,

DT, personally, I don't really care if a musician is dubbed "ground breaking". I'm sure as a drummer you have different standards, but for me, I'm not necessarily looking for raw talent. I seek a synchronous melody, a melody that plays with my emotions, gives me hope, drives me, and allows me to escape if only for five minutes.

I've listened to some of the greats and I simply prefer Carey's style over the majority. His "tribal" drumming blends so well with Tool's guitar riffs and lyrics that I consider some of their songs masterpieces. You know that feeling you get that sends shivers down your spine while listening to some music? Tool is one of the few bands that can do that for me.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Kielicious;73457 wrote:

*cough* Keith Moon *cough*
Or is that too off genre for you?

Oh, I'm a big Moon fan. He fit perfectly as a rock theater drummer - he had the presence both visually and sonically for the role. Perfect fit for The Who. He was increadible, but simply does not make the grade of legends such as Buddy Rich, Louis Bellson, and the other's I've mentioned... and the many others that could reasonably be placed in that pantheon.

Keith Moon was, however, one of those drummers I spoke of in my first post of this thread. He did his job, and did it perfectly. The only reason why people think of Moon when they think of legendary drummers is that he was so out front - I mean, he shot a frickin' cannon out of his kick drum. That grabs the attention. But who thinks of Jim Gordon when they think of legendary drummers outside of that narrow field in the drumming community obsessed with that period's music of that particular genre? Jim Gordon was every bit as good, and in my estimation better, than Moon. And that's no slight against Moon, either.

Theaetetus;73462 wrote:

Well, there is one thing that Danny Carey plays that none of the other drummers listed play--the tabla. The tabla is a notoriously difficult drum to master, and Danny Carey has been progressing in his playing of it over the last couple Tool albums.

Are you sure Vinnie C and Steve Gadd cannot play table? I'm sure Rich did not, and I doubt Elvin made a serious practice of it, but VC and Gadd might. But it doesn't really matter. There are drummers out there on at least Carey's level who do play the table at least as well as he does - and I also bet Carey would be the first to admit so.

Zetherin;73471 wrote:

DT, personally, I don't really care if a musician is dubbed "ground breaking". I'm sure as a drummer you have different standards, but for me, I'm not necessarily looking for raw talent. I seek a synchronous melody, a melody that plays with my emotions, gives me hope, drives me, and allows me to escape if only for five minutes.

Honestly, Carey's playing is more ground breaking than the band's lyrics.

As for drumming criticism, there is really only one issue: how well the drummer fits the music.

Zetherin;73471 wrote:

I've listened to some of the greats and I simply prefer Carey's style over the majority.

That's cool. My favorite is John Bonham, and he can't hold a candle to Daney Carey, much less the other drummers I mentioned.

Zetherin;73471 wrote:

His "tribal" drumming blends so well with Tool's guitar riffs and lyrics that I consider some of their songs masterpieces. You know that feeling you get that sends shivers down your spine while listening to some music? Tool is one of the few bands that can do that for me.

If you like the tribal thing, in a rock context, you might want to check out Ginger Baker's work with Cream. He was one of the earliest to implement that into rock, and one of the earliest to bring out the double bass, so his work is not as complex as Carey's, but it is brilliant none the less.

Art Blakey is sort of the gold standard in tribal/polyrhythmic drumming. He studied with African tribaly drummers in the mid-sixties and came back to the states with a style that made Elvin Jones' style possible.

0 Replies

@Yogi DMT,

I'm gonna get my hands on some John Bonham, Art Blakey, and Ginger Baker. Are there any specific songs I should be searching for?

Thanks for the suggestions, DT.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

John Bonham is the noted, revered, idolized, diefied drummer of the equally idolized rock group Led Zeppelin. Notable drumming tracks include "Fool in the Rain", "Achilles Last Stand", "Out on the Titles", "Good Times, Bad Times", and about seventy others. He was a rock 'n roll master.

Art Blakey, like Bonham and the others, is a drummer who's entire catalog is percussive canon. Along with his work as a group leader (Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers), he backed Miles Davis and Thelonius Monk. I prefer his work with Monk, but you can't really go wrong. Besides, if you are unfamiliar with Monk, you should be - so kill two birds with one stone. "Well, You Needn't" is a great track, with a fun drum solo. Ben Riley drummed for the re-recording of the tune and does a fine job, but the original with Blakey is what you want to find.

And then there is Ginger Baker. He was the drummer for Cream and the short lived Clapton-Winwood-Baker group Blind Faith. Baker's best work is, in my opinion, his reunion three nights at the Royal Albert Hall which can be found on DVD. On the record he plays a version of "TOAD", his famous drum solo, with a fairly standard jazz section - but the gem is his powerful ployrhythmic-tribal section. I think you would dig that, especially. Baker has lived in Africa for many years now, and, like Blakey, has studied with African tribal drummers. Other than the reunion DVD, the record "Disraeli's Gears" contains fine examples of his playing. Baker's style has matured a great deal since those first Cream days - and it shows on the DVD.

But really, more than these cats, I recommend Elvin Jones. Specifically John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" record.

I'm always happy to talk shop. Take care, and have a good listen.

0 Replies

@Theaetetus,

YouTube - Ticks and Leeches by Tool

Here's the opening "tribal drumbeat" and to add to that, possibly one of the hardest song on drums ever. This is an excellent cover but just goes to show you have to be a true athlete to play a song like this.

1 Reply

@Yogi DMT,

Nothing against the song or the drumming, but this does not come close to 'hardest songs on drums ever'.

First, the idea of even a list of the hardest songs on drums is nonsensical. Drumming is not simply technical proficiency. Drumming is far more about feel and time than technical capacity.

You want hard? Try getting the New Orleans feel just right on James Brown's "Lickin' Stick". That's a heck of a lot harder than "Ticks and Leeches", and the Brown track's drumming difficulty does not even begin to approach the swing feel of Elvin Jones on "Acknowledgment" from "A Love Supreme".

0 Replies

@Yogi DMT,

I think it might be more opinionated. But yes, i feel that song on drums is up there. Like you said that not to say it takes the most technical skill but it just an amazing work of art. To add to that, the stamina and strength needed to play the drums like that for the whole song constitutes a real athlete for a drummer.

1 Reply

@Yogi DMT,

Sure, it's a great track. And, yes, metal and progressive drumming does require a good deal of athleticism.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Its all a matter of personal opinion. If I asked who was better at drumming, Danny Carey or Joey Jordison? Its hard to really say for sure because both have completely different play styles. DC can create some wicked rhythms and transitions, while JJ has speed and technical skill that only a few can reach. Its all a matter of whose style you like more.

1 Reply

@Yogi DMT,

DT, I just saw a few youtube vids of Elvin Jones, and I now see what you're referring to when you say "swing feel". And I also agree with the sentiments that they seem to both be great drummers, but differently great. I used to train under a man named Ray Nunzi that had this seem "feel" - is it the time period in which they began playing? I don't know, but it's definitely different than DC. EJ has this rhythm that doesn't resemble anything that I've ever seen DC play.

I know I sound vague, as I don't really know the technical adjectives to adequately describe the differences I'm hearing! Thanks for the suggestions, though, I enjoy them!

0 Replies

@Kielicious,

Kielicious;74093 wrote:

Its all a matter of personal opinion. If I asked who was better at drumming, Danny Carey or Joey Jordison? Its hard to really say for sure because both have completely different play styles. DC can create some wicked rhythms and transitions, while JJ has speed and technical skill that only a few can reach. Its all a matter of whose style you like more.

No, there is a great deal more than personal opinion involved. Personal opinion determines a favorite drummer, but has nothing to do with comparing the talents of drummers.

Who is better: Carey or Jordinson? That's an easy question to answer. Carey, by a million miles. Jordinson is not particularly fast (Carey is faster with both hands and feet) and his technical skill is not as impressive as Carey's work. Joey is a more straightforward metal drummer, Carey is a technical beast who flaunts his mathematical mind.

Nothing against Joey, I suppose he does a fine job for Slipknot, but he is no where near the level of masters like Carey.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;74110 wrote:

No, there is a great deal more than personal opinion involved. Personal opinion determines a favorite drummer, but has nothing to do with comparing the talents of drummers.

Who is better: Carey or Jordinson? That's an easy question to answer. Carey, by a million miles. Jordinson is not particularly fast (Carey is faster with both hands and feet) and his technical skill is not as impressive as Carey's work. Joey is a more straightforward metal drummer, Carey is a technical beast who flaunts his mathematical mind.

Nothing against Joey, I suppose he does a fine job for Slipknot, but he is no where near the level of masters like Carey.

Trying to determine who has more talent between any two individuals can only go so far and in the end opinion breaks the two. Its like judging a food competition for best taste. Obviously some tastes are better than others but eventually you'll end up in disagreement amongst judges and thats the point. Whos to say your sense of taste or style is any better than another qualified competitor/judge?

1 Reply

@Yogi DMT,

Kielicious wrote:

Trying to determine who has more talent between any two individuals can only go so far and in the end opinion breaks the two. Its like judging a food competition for best taste. Obviously some tastes are better than others but eventually you'll end up in disagreement amongst judges and thats the point. Whos to say your sense of taste or style is any better than another qualified competitor/judge?

What he meant by, "there is a great deal more than personal opinion involved" is that there is intersubjective agreement on those competitors qualified. My 6 year-old nephew could pick up two sticks and start drumming away, but we wouldn't place him in the same league as Carey, would we? Clearly some people are better drummers than others, just like some people are better piano players than others, or cooks, or drivers, or whatever.

I'm not sure about the consensus, but DT seems to indicate that Carey is just a better drummer in general - nothing to do with individual playstyle - he can simply outperform Jordinson as a drummer completely. Some people can outperform others, in whatever craft, and to say this is just "personal opinion" is stepping too far into the relativist mindset.

0 Replies

@Kielicious,

Zetherin;74109 wrote:

DT, I just saw a few youtube vids of Elvin Jones, and I now see what you're referring to when you say "swing feel".

He was something else, huh? Great lose swing feel. You might watch some Buddy Rich videos - Rich could swing, for sure, but his feel was more militaristic and imposing, while Elvin was lose and free-wheeling.

Zetherin;74109 wrote:

And I also agree with the sentiments that they seem to both be great drummers, but differently great.

Which is why a mediocre Ringo can be the perfect drummer for the Beatles. Better drummers abound, but the uniqueness of the playing is such that the drummer is better for a particular gig than drummers of greater skill.

Zetherin;74109 wrote:

I used to train under a man named Ray Nunzi that had this seem "feel" - is it the time period in which they began playing? I don't know, but it's definitely different than DC. EJ has this rhythm that doesn't resemble anything that I've ever seen DC play.

Well, for one, it's the difference between mid-sixties be-bop and progressive metal. But, yeah, very different styles. Though, it is also interesting to look for the similarities in such varied musicians; Elvin was one of the early drummers to push the polyrhythm, deriving his style from Art Blakey's example. Fast forward several decades, and Danny Carey, like Elvin years before, is bringing polyrhythmic drumming to a new level with his expansion of strange time signatures and layering time signatures over different limbs.

Zetherin;74109 wrote:

I know I sound vague, as I don't really know the technical adjectives to adequately describe the differences I'm hearing! Thanks for the suggestions, though, I enjoy them!

It's a jargon among drummers. I'm glad you enjoy this stuff. It is not often that someone gives a damn to look up Elvin Jones videos, though more people should.

Kielicious;74125 wrote:

Trying to determine who has more talent between any two individuals can only go so far and in the end opinion breaks the two. Its like judging a food competition for best taste. Obviously some tastes are better than others but eventually you'll end up in disagreement amongst judges and thats the point. Whos to say your sense of taste or style is any better than another qualified competitor/judge?

Sure, there is an inherent subjective quality, and also the question of how much skill needs to be displayed in any given context. Mitch Mitchell was impressive on Hendrix records, but you would never imagine just how good he was until you gave his live performances a listen and Mitchell burns through them like a bop drummer.

That said, I'll stand by my judgement that Carey is a far better drummer than Joey Jordinson, and my bet is that Joey looks to Carey as someone to learn from. Which is a good thing: there's always someone better out there, so prioritizing learning is wise, and you don't see the success Joey sees without having a bit of that wisdom.

0 Replies

@Yogi DMT,

The funny thing is, I can pretty much guarantee that if you stuck either Danny Carey or Joey Jordison in a room with me and my folk guitar playing and singing, the resulting music would probably be god awful (although maybe Carey on the tabla may create something interesting). For my style of songwriting, drummers that play kits must must practice a minimalist style (something akin to Ringo), or they have to play some sort of hand drums and keep a simple beat. Some people's styles are suited for certain types of music, and in folk music a drummer with technical mastery would be wasting much of their skill.

1 Reply

@Theaetetus,

I'm not so convinced. Sure, if you had Carey play in the prog-metal style for which he is known, and you played folk guitar, that would be God awful.

But as for technical mastery on drums being incompatible with folk music, I have to disagree. Of course, I cannot make strong predictions without hearing your music but.... well, consider the blues, especially Howlin' Wolf's bands. While the technical flourishes are not as showy as what you will hear on a Tool record, technically impressive playing abounds. The difference is subtlety. With Tool, for example, the technical master is immediately apparent even to the non-musician. But when you get into the blues and early soul music, the technical mastery is subtle - subtle bass drum feathering and ghost note patterns, that sort of thing, as opposed to blazing polyrhythmic fills and mind boggling tribal grooves. It's a different sort of technical mastery, but both very much remarked upon by drummers.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;74151 wrote:

I'm not so convinced. Sure, if you had Carey play in the prog-metal style for which he is known, and you played folk guitar, that would be God awful.

But as for technical mastery on drums being incompatible with folk music, I have to disagree. Of course, I cannot make strong predictions without hearing your music but.... well, consider the blues, especially Howlin' Wolf's bands. While the technical flourishes are not as showy as what you will hear on a Tool record, technically impressive playing abounds. The difference is subtlety. With Tool, for example, the technical master is immediately apparent even to the non-musician. But when you get into the blues and early soul music, the technical mastery is subtle - subtle bass drum feathering and ghost note patterns, that sort of thing, as opposed to blazing polyrhythmic fills and mind boggling tribal grooves. It's a different sort of technical mastery, but both very much remarked upon by drummers.

I should have been a little more clear. To the average listener, folk drummers are not technical masters. One of the best drummers I have played with used just a snare, bass drum, a high hat, and one small floor tom. It was the various subtleties of the playing that made it technically proficient, but if you put her up against Danny Carey, very few if any would say the drumming was technically masterful. I have also played with some people that play just the djimbe and they were phenomenal drummers with just a single hand drum.

1 Reply

@Theaetetus,

Then the people being asked would not be drummers. Those average listeners have no understanding of the complexities of drumming styles, even thought they could notice such complexities if shown contrasting examples.

If you ever look through the magazine Modern Drummer, you will see that we percussionists typically regard subtle technique as highly as we do obvious technique. Brushwork, for example, can be extremely difficult from a technical perspective, yet also be a perfect sonic match when pataflafas around the kit or something like that would be obscene.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

I wasnt trying to promote the idea that Joey was better than Danny. I was just using Joey as an example of how you can have two great drummers at opposite ends of the spectrum. I completely agree that DC is better than JJ but my point was to show that DC's style is entirely different than JJ's. Danny's style is more influenced by jazz and JJ's is obviously more fast paced metal. So yes a beginner drummer cant compete against the best, but deciding who is better amongst the top echelon of drummers ends up being a judgement of personal opinion. Which is probably why if everyone posted their top 10 favorite drummers, the lists would vary significantly.

1 Reply

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know