1
   

On True Spirituality - A Buddhist View.

 
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 04:52 pm
@jeeprs,
Quote:
You know, I can tell you are upset by the excesses and nonsense of religion. It's too bad you can't strictly try to explore the experience of the Buddha or Jesus or Kabir or Nanak or many of the great mediators and monastics. You'd see and feel a wholly different thing going on within them.
I have, I just don't fool myself by adding in the unnecessary delusions to tie it all together so you can claim it to be something more than it is. I have nothing against religions, or against people having the right to practice. The ONLY problem I have is when people pressed their ideology onto others. It is fine by me if you want to do it or practice in such an such a way, but it is WRONG to tell others they should practice in such and such a way if they are not wanting to. That is the only difference, you can call it being upset or what ever but I see it as a respect issue. If you think drinking alcohol is bad, then by all means don't do it, but if you want to get alcohol banned so no one will consume it then you are wrong in doing that.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 05:21 pm
@jeeprs,
for a perspective from a practitioner, there is a sense in which (especially in Mahayana) meditation leads to skilled action. This does not mean that the practitioner is enlightened 'like the Buddha, world knowing one and teacher of Gods and men'. Nothing like that. But awakening, satori, does definitely come from practise. It is quite definite and real. It changes the way you relate to people, how you feel about the world, and many other things, generally in a very positive way. The reason is it called 'skillful' is because your mind functions differently and is guided by spontaneous compassion so you are less inclined to keep 'sticking your hand in the cookie jar' so to speak. It all happens naturally from meditation practise.

Another important perspective - 'nothing special'. The mind tends to glamorise things: 'enlightenment, oh that must be wonderful, I will be able to levitate'. No such luck. Life goes on just as before. But awakening becomes part of the way your mind and heart actually operate. As the Zen saying has it 'chop wood, draw water. How marvellous, how mysterious'.
0 Replies
 
LWSleeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 05:37 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;85856 wrote:
I have, I just don't fool myself by adding in the unnecessary delusions to tie it all together so you can claim it to be something more than it is. I have nothing against religions, or against people having the right to practice. The ONLY problem I have is when people pressed their ideology onto others. It is fine by me if you want to do it or practice in such an such a way, but it is WRONG to tell others they should practice in such and such a way if they are not wanting to. That is the only difference, you can call it being upset or what ever but I see it as a respect issue. If you think drinking alcohol is bad, then by all means don't do it, but if you want to get alcohol banned so no one will consume it then you are wrong in doing that.


I agree it is wrong to force beliefs . . . but what about using every discussion even remotely related to religion to vent your hostilities? Some of us want to talk objectively about things, as good philosophers should do. People who come here to preach their causes, whether it's religion or anti-religion, have exactly the same impact . . . to distract from meaningful intellectual exploration we can all share in, and to turn it into something that is all about them.

I was raised in a strict Baptist family, and came out of it extremely hostile to religion and religious people because of my personal space being so often violated by religion. But I realized it isn't religion that's the problem, it is ignorance. If we throw out religion, ignorance will take root in some other way; if you move to an all atheist community, I guarantee you will run into dogma of some sort, people who want to force beliefs (look what the Bolsheviks did to people they considered non-believers). Why? Because humanity is still subject to that . . . it isn't the specific way ignorance manifests, it is the underlying trait we've yet to overcome.

There is an inherent contradiction in harboring prejudice and practicing philosophy because the latter requires us to attain the pure, unbiased position of epoche in order to fairly and accurately evaluate things. I don't mean we should be like a computer, reasoning without passion; but those personal experiences which bias us are among the very worst enemies of the philosopher, IMHO.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 05:58 pm
@jeeprs,
Quote:
but what about using every discussion even remotely related to religion to vent your hostilities? Some of us want to talk objectively about things, as good philosophers should do.


Maybe you see it as me venting hostilities but I just see certain religious input into philosophical discussions like giving validity to something which has not earned it. It would be like me saying we should discuss gremlins as a philosophical discussion since they impact our lives on a daily basis. That doesn't seem silly to you?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 06:05 pm
@jeeprs,
Actually this does suggest a new and important topic which I have been meaning to bring up on the Forum. I think I do understand the sensitivities and taboos around this topic and they have very deep roots. And actually taboo is a very apt word. It reminds me of another Alan Watts classic, The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are. The Amazon product description:

Quote:
Modern Western culture and technology is inextricably tied to the belief in the existence of a self as a separate ego, separated from and in conflict with the rest of the world. In this classic book, Watts provides a lucid and simple presentation of an alternative view based on Hindi and Vedantic philosophy.


I have some material to put together on this topic in the next day or so.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 06:23 pm
@jeeprs,
Quote:
I have some material to put together on this topic in the next day or so.
I am personally going to look forward to this. I am a fan of Alan Watts and I think he is probably one of the most underrated philosophers of the twentieth century. Some just see him as a British hippy guru but that just goes to show how underrated he really is.

His whole thing about deprogramming is FAR ahead of it's time and quickly evaporating since there is basically no one talking about it, let alone discussing it. Anyways Jeep, I look forward to this.
0 Replies
 
LWSleeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 06:36 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;85873 wrote:
Maybe you see it as me venting hostilities but I just see certain religious input into philosophical discussions like giving validity to something which has not earned it.


Well, you responded me, so as far as I am concerned, this is between us and us only. You initially inquired about my answer to Khethil, who was asking about Buddhism (which is a religion). I think I stayed pretty close to what he asked, adding what I thought was relevant from my experience and education. I then answered specifically what you asked me. So, exactly where was it that I gave validity to something which has not earned it? Also, if you respond that I did, tell me how you know what I said has not earned validity.
0 Replies
 
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Aug, 2009 08:54 pm
@jeeprs,
Read it all, great post. To be honest i wasn't aware at all of any Buddhist ideas and philosophies before i read this but after reading, i must say that what you've said is similar to my views and i think i might look into Buddhism more.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Aug, 2009 12:47 am
@jeeprs,
Quote:
So, exactly where was it that I gave validity to something which has not earned it? Also, if you respond that I did, tell me how you know what I said has not earned validity.


This was not pointed at you LWSleeth, I was just making a comment on selected philosophical topics. Why some of them are considered philosophical when they clearly have no right be considered philosophical. I thought my example of gremlins was to point that out. If all things are open for philosophical discussion then lets start a thread on how gremlins effect your ever day life.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 08:46 pm
I believe I know a good number of Buddhas, but I infer their enlightenment from the way they live. They live simply and whole heartedly, meditate consistently, and rarely talk doctrine or even talk about enligtenment, especially their own.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 09:42 pm
@JLNobody,
can I ask a question? also sorry Jlb, I meant to type to all and am not trying to hit you up personally, I am still learning things on this website, I am sorry...

who exactly are people meditating to in Buddhism if buddha, he himself is not a god? I am curious, and simply put, I have lived this life once so far and I am still young, If I knew I had to be reincarnated 14 times like buddha and Buddha has still not reached Nirvana or enlightenment....I really honestly don't see that my personal perceptions tell me that Buddha was correct...it seems that if a Kingdom exists where there is pleasure and people are profound...I would rather personally believe that Christianity in its One Life and in Heaven is a Less path of resistance than a life of 14 maybe more rebirths and still not there....my overall point was who in fact are you meditating to in your hours of meditation if it is in fact NOT for a higher being?? or who has the authority to blow these flames out? and if you do meditate to blow out flames, how then if a higher being is not responsible, who will accomplish these acts?? oneself?? if you blow out a flame by meditation it is very easy to see that you may indeed accept a new flame needed blowing out that took the place of the flame that is now in fact gone....which to me shows that WITHOUT some said savior ANY religion or philosophy is INCOMPLETE...( I don't want to offend anyone just giving different incite)....and am truly curious from a buddhist perspective....
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 09:54 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
also krumble, again you seem to not grasp the insult factor....I am curious for your answer to this question....why in fact are you on these debate message forums if you are in fact strict with your views and NOT open to acceptance of other beliefs that in MANY ways have a lot to offer to the table to enrich ANY belief or philosophy or religion?....
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 10:12 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Also I have read bits on Buddhism, and in a nutshell I can see some GOOD things in the practices of the laws of buddhism...mainly do not misuse sex and do not use recreational drugs....but again if your relying solely on the belief that one can conquer these laws by meditation, I truly feel your wrong...because ALL religions and or philosophies who have acceptable codes of conducts WILL BE BROKEN over time...if there is NO savior to "save" from the act of disobeying the laws...or eight fold path as it is called in Buddhism, I see it as almost good things exists, but it is an EMPTY religion....
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:29 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
It is impossible to discuss Buddhism with you because your notion of it is SO off the mark. And as far as I can tell Krumple is here to share his understandings. And his fellow A2Kers are grateful for that.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:29 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
It is impossible to discuss Buddhism with you because your notion of it is SO off the mark. And as far as I can tell Krumple is here to share his understandings. And his fellow A2Kers are grateful for that.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Aug, 2011 11:36 pm
@JLNobody,
ok well we can make an impossability possible, I am here to learn, please explain where I am off mark? I am interested in learning to enrich my beliefs and or view points with perspectives from others...and as far a Krumple, ask myself and vikorr how they feel about his insults to get points across notion...if I insulted you and claimed it is the ONLY way you would accept my view points, would you listen to me more? or turn away from me more?
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Sep, 2011 04:12 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Buddhism in its most popular forms exists as a set of highly institutionalized, and regionally varied, "religion" complete with rituals, beliefs, demons, karmic determinism, the on-going reincarnation of some kind of non-soul, Saints and a quasi-God, the Buddha. This is not what I refer to when I say I practice "buddhism." My practice and that of many A2Kers is the practice of a meditation technique or set of techniques designed to relieve us of the illusions that make life "problematical." It has nothing to do with beliefs, after lives, sin, reward for "virtue", etc. Those are elments of the popular religion(s) of Buddhism. Meditation is not prayer; it is not TO the Buddha. The Buddha died, only his teachings remain. Now you can see how this form of Buddhism, the practice and pursuit of sanity (not the adherence to doctrines) is not commensurable with Christianity, the pursuit of salvation from an imagined Hell and the soul's redemption from a fictitious/false (original) sin--unless interpreted so metaphorically that it is not recognizable as the foundation of Christianity.
Before you engage me in a discussion of Buddhism please make the effort--if you wish--to read up on a bit of the literature on, preferrably, soto zen or Theravadin (the practice of Vipassana/mindfulness) Buddhism.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2011 01:42 am
@JLNobody,
ok I respect that , but again I see any religion with laws or codes of conduct and no Savior an empty one....so I may take you up on reading but probably not...to be truthful....I have seen ENOUGH from buddhism, to see that I accept Jesus before Buddha, (these are my views)...
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 10:55 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
And I can respect that. Except that I see no need for a "savior" of a non-existent soul from a non-existent Hell. I DO see a need for lessons to be learned, especially when they liberate us from the suffering of existential delusions. And I find both the Buddha and Jesus to be the teachers of such lessons. The "Jesus Seminar" is my source of understandings regarding Jesus' teachings
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 11:43 am
@JLNobody,
I personally see that if ANY are purged...it is for a time....for none are foolish enough to suffer hell for eternity....I hope this helps...( and although I differ from the Bible this is the way I believe it is! from my perceptions...but that therefor, the WAY to god is from Jesus, when fighting demons on your way to Heaven, enlightenment etc....
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 11/27/2021 at 06:49:31