26
   

Why aren't we talking about "Draw Muhammad Day?" May 20th

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 12:35 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
De facto censorship via death threat.


What really sucks, Mr Hypocrite Bill is the huge number of de facto deaths because of US propaganda. Why aren't you screaming for all the de facto liars from the Bush administration, you know, the ones who caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands to be incarcerated?

How do you figure, by what ******* MORAL standard, that your bill of rights is more important than the deaths of so many all because of a pack of lies?

Jesus Christ almight, Bill, you are pretty low on the scum totem pole.

MAJOR ASSHOLE!
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 08:40 am
Well, while JTT figures out how he really feels about this, I think she chose to proceed with this knowing (or she should have known) what the outcome would be. She may not have fully appreciated (as in a thorough understanding) the consequences of her actions, but she chose to "make a point".

Point made. Counterpoint made as well. She made a choice. She's facing the consequences.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:26 am
@JPB,
There'll be no counterpoint from Bill because Bill knows in his heart that the points I made are completely valid. Read his signature line, JPB. You must have heard Bill moralizing and pontificating over this that and the other thing but he can't seem to bring his mighty morality to even mention those who have caused untold suffering and death to millions of people.

What are the counterpoints to crimes against humanity?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:26 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Well, while JTT figures out how he really feels about this, I think she chose to proceed with this knowing (or she should have known) what the outcome would be. She may not have fully appreciated (as in a thorough understanding) the consequences of her actions, but she chose to "make a point".

Point made. Counterpoint made as well. She made a choice. She's facing the consequences.
Not exactly true. She made a cartoon, with the most harmless of images possible and the protest was supposed to be satire. Almost immediately thereafter, when people started taking the idea seriously, she said it was only meant to be humorous and urged people not to actually do it.

In short; she exercised her freedom of unpopular speech, and some fanatical assholes have now silenced her for it. To refer to her attempt at humor (which at worst may have been in bad taste) and the fanatical assholes effective death threats as "point and counterpoint" is really missing the big picture.

The rights of every man are diminished when the rights one man are threatened.

Squinny's metaphor I think was best: "A well behaved woman doesn't get beaten." Would you use your "point and counterpoint" summary for the woman who got beat for speaking out of turn? I think not.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:27 am
@OCCOM BILL,


The hottest fires in hell are reserved for those who remain neutral in times of moral crisis. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. (Edmund Burke)
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  5  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:48 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

She made a cartoon, with the most harmless of images possible and the protest was supposed to be satire.


And this is my point precisely. She intended to make a point of protest by using satire and chose something that was going to result in a fatwa against her. She wasn't ignorant of the sensibilities around making such an image. She purposely intended to mock one of the basic premises of Islam through satire. I like satire as much as the next person. I like free speech as much as the next person. I don't understand the reasoning behind the sacred premise of not making images any more than most non-Muslims. But I'm not about to stick it in their faces just because I can either.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:57 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

She made a cartoon, with the most harmless of images possible and the protest was supposed to be satire.


And this is my point precisely. She intended to make a point of protest by using satire and chose something that was going to result in a fatwa against her. She wasn't ignorant of the sensibilities around making such an image. She purposely intend to mock one of the basic premises of Islam through satire. I like satire as much as the next person. I like free speech as much as the next person. I don't understand the reasoning behind the sacred premise of not making images any more than most non-Muslims. But I'm not about to stick it in their faces just because I can either.
Then don't. But don't legitimize fanatic behavior by pretending their right to swing their fists extends beyond a cartoonist's nose. That is as absurd as blaming the abused woman for speaking out of turn.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 10:02 am
@OCCOM BILL,
huh? I believe it's her nose she's seeking to protect. And, for the record, the abused wife should get the **** away from the abuser because she's never going to change him and you know it.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 10:28 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

huh? I believe it's her nose she's seeking to protect. And, for the record, the abused wife should get the **** away from the abuser because she's never going to change him and you know it.

Do you actually believe satire should be restricted to not offend anyone? Or just fanatics who will make (and possibly carry thru) death threats? (Such a position is diametrically opposed to notions of freedom of speech, btw.)

Should the abused woman have to join the witness protection program to avoid her next beating... for having spoken her mind? JPB, that’s crazy.

If fanatics don't like cartoons; the appropriate response is to not buy the paper... or even advertise or demonstrate against it. But I don't see how you can possibly defend their attempt (successful attempt!) to superimpose their values over anyone else’s via Death Threat. That just doesn’t make any sense.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 10:35 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

JPB wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

She made a cartoon, with the most harmless of images possible and the protest was supposed to be satire.


And this is my point precisely. She intended to make a point of protest by using satire and chose something that was going to result in a fatwa against her. She wasn't ignorant of the sensibilities around making such an image. She purposely intend to mock one of the basic premises of Islam through satire. I like satire as much as the next person. I like free speech as much as the next person. I don't understand the reasoning behind the sacred premise of not making images any more than most non-Muslims. But I'm not about to stick it in their faces just because I can either.
Then don't. But don't legitimize fanatic behavior by pretending their right to swing their fists extends beyond a cartoonist's nose. That is as absurd as blaming the abused woman for speaking out of turn.



It's not a question of right and wrong, but one of prudence.

A good example would be the police. If the police are treating you badly, you might be right to stand up to them - but being right has never, ever un-kicked one's ass.

It's pretty clear that she made a poor decision, and as much as we want to rail against the unfairness of it, she's now paying the consequences.

Cycloptichorn
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 10:41 am
If only she'd listened to Bart...

http://static02.mediaite.com/geekosystem/uploads/2010/04/simpsons-chalkboard-bart-e1272284105139.jpg
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 10:46 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:


Do you actually believe satire should be restricted to not offend anyone? Or just fanatics who will make (and possibly carry thru) death threats? (Such a position is diametrically opposed to notions of freedom of speech, btw.)

Should the abused woman have to join the witness protection program to avoid her next beating... for having spoken her mind? JPB, that’s crazy.

If fanatics don't like cartoons; the appropriate response is to not buy the paper... or even advertise or demonstrate against it. But I don't see how you can possibly defend their attempt (successful attempt!) to superimpose their values over anyone else’s via Death Threat. That just doesn’t make any sense.



Let's start with the part about defending something. I'm not defending anything. I'm saying that there are actions that people take that result in predictable reactions. Knowingly taking those actions puts one at risk of living with the consequences of the predictable reaction. One can become a martyr and "take one for the cause" if one chooses, but her action was a choice that she made, pure and simple. It was a choice that she could have just as easily not made and not faced the reaction. In my opinion it was an arrogant, in your face, "so there - take that" action. It was an action she had the right to make. I'm not defending the reaction, nor do I think it was deserved. But it was predictable.

Moving on to should... there are lots of things that should and shouldn't happen in a perfect world. There is also respect for the beliefs of others, even if we don't understand them. I disagree that Squinney's metaphor is a good match in this case. This was an intentional act intending to provoke a response. And it did just that.

Quote:
We're hoping the religious bigots go into full and immediate remission, and we wish her the best.


Me too.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 12:59 pm
Molly's cartoon depicted a cherry, domino, handbag, cup of coffee, spool of thread and a box of pasta arguing over who was the “real likeness of Mohammed.

http://turbo.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2010/07/molly-norris-draw-mohammed.jpg


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:12 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
and some fanatical assholes have now silenced her for it.


Three million Vietnamese just wanted to raise their kids, enjoy a little leisure time, 40,000 Nicaraguans the same, Afghans and Iraqis too, Cubans want to be free of terrorist actions, and a hundred more examples like this totaling some 5 to 6 million dead and guess what, Bill, a whole host of fanatical assholes really silenced them.

And you, the great defender of all that's right, honorable and just sits silent.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:05 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

There is also respect for the beliefs of others, even if we don't understand them.
No, there isn't. Every proponent of free speech needs to understand the obvious fundamental reality that only offensive speech needs to be protected in the first place. Matt and Trey make their living pushing the envelope, and there is NOTHING wrong with that. The First Amendment didn't grant us freedom of speech: The authors of that documented merely recognized such freedoms were neither theirs to give nor take away... and that all humanity possessed (or should possess) these rights inherently.

Pointing out the reaction was predictable in no way distinguishes this wrong from Squinney's example that the well behaved wife doesn't get beat. Is that backlash any less predictable? Does it lead you to think wives should mind their tongues around abusive assholes?


JPB wrote:
This was an intentional act intending to provoke a response. And it did just that.
When Larry Flint opted to depict a famous TV Evangelist receiving a blowjob from his own mother in a cartoon; there can be no doubt that his intention went beyond humor and was intended to offend. So what? It was precisely his courage in upsetting the "beliefs of others" that has protected the First Amendment for us all ever since. Matt and Trey were carrying the same torch. When they were threatened, Molly offered the gentlest cartoon possible in solidarity. The Simpsons creators openly admitted they too would have, if they weren't too afraid. When Molly too was threatened; a good number of us chose to stand in solidarity as well, by following her lead.

I challenge anyone who thinks that was wrong to provide a list of groups that should be considered off-limits to cartoon satirists. I have trouble believing any intelligent person's list will grow very long before they realize the error in their rationale. Any takers?
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:25 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Bill, inhale and read what I wrote. I didn't say it was wrong. I clearly said she had the right to do what she did. I also said that the result of doing it was predictable. Larry Flynt? Larry Flynt was shot. Was that reaction justified? No. Was it predictable? Yes. People make choices all the time. Some choices are smarter than others and I think her choice was kinda dumb in this case.

And get off the abused wife comparison. Show me one place where you've counseled an abused wife to get into her husband's face and provoke him?
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 04:17 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Bill, inhale and read what I wrote. I didn't say it was wrong. I clearly said she had the right to do what she did. I also said that the result of doing it was predictable. Larry Flynt? Larry Flynt was shot. Was that reaction justified? No. Was it predictable? Yes. People make choices all the time. Some choices are smarter than others and I think her choice was kinda dumb in this case.
What you refer to as kinda dumb, I refer to as a courageous demonstration of solidarity. Had a great number of cartoon satirists shown her same courage along with her; she wouldn't need to join the witness protection program now. How many other victims do you refer to as dumb for not laying down to bully's threats?

JPB wrote:
And get off the abused wife comparison. Show me one place where you've counseled an abused wife to get into her husband's face and provoke him?
Get in his face and provoke him? She never stepped foot in the same room, nor even asked, let alone forced him to look at her cartoon.

On the other hand; show me a wife about to be abused in the same room as us; and see if you and I aren't both in the abusers face. Molly was pitching in in solidarity with Matt and Trey, who were being threatened, just as you and I would be if abuse were taking place in front of us.

Moreover, my advice to EVERY abused woman is to leave the abuser. How many abusive husbands do you think consider that good behavior? And how many victims have seen the violence escalate precisely because they did defy their abuser by leaving? I knew a girl who was murdered for doing precisely that. Fear of the bully's threats, however, in no way means a victim should obey abuser’s demands. Living subservient to a bully is just flat out wrong, and any blaming the victim for the bully's violence (or threats of same) is wrong in every instance. What other victims of bullying would you refer to as "dumb" for not obeying a bully’s unreasonable demands? No one forced a single fanatic to look at a single cartoon.

Defying this particular bully is important if you give a rat's ass about freedom of speech. Look at Irishk's posting of the Simpsons response and tell me there is anything right in forfeiting freedom at the bully's demand. How many other cartoon satirists have been stifled by these death threats? Look at Irishk's next posting to see just how soft Molly's cartoon in solidarity was. Then try and provide the list of other special interest groups you think should be off limits to cartoon satirists and explain why. I'll bet you can't. I see no one has even tried.

The sad fact that’s being ignored here is that freedom of speech has already been eroded by these fanatic’s death threats (those who recognize this as an inalienable right will not attempt to evade by pointing out the speech is still "legal")… Sadly, the more popular position on this thread, inexplicably, seems to be to blame the victims and rail against other potential victims of oppression by death threat, rather than recognize the simple truth: The truth is no religious group has ANY right to tell 6 Billion people what they should or shouldn’t depict. None. I’d wager of the 6 Billion people on this planet; all but a handful recognize this simple truth in a general sense, whether they happen to be Muslim or not. And every last person who disagrees, whether it be out of devotion or sensitivity is simply, completely wrong.

By succeeding in scaring the Simpsons creators into silence (along with who knows how many others), the South Park Network Execs into obedience, and by making Molly disappear altogether; the fanatics have won a battle towards their goal of superimposing the tenets of Sharia Law over the Bill of Rights. I am shocked at how few on this thread recognize this as the greater evil.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 04:55 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
Moreover, my advice to EVERY abused woman is to leave the abuser.
I have no doubt but that you'd go through the charade of listening to her story though, so that you could pretend that you give a **** about what she wants, and also pretend that you have advice that is fine tuned to her life. Unfortunately, this is what the saviour community does often, what the "helper" wants counts for everything, what the one seeking help wants for nothing. There is lots of moralizing emitting from people who exercise such basic dishonesty as this.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 05:10 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
Had a great number of cartoon satirists shown her same courage along with her; she wouldn't need to join the witness protection program now.


Yeah, that would have made a huge difference, Bill. What medications are you taking?

From what I've read, she didn't join the or a witness protection program.

Quote:
Fear of the bully's threats, however, in no way means a victim should obey abuser’s demands.


That's true, Bill, and the result, 9/11. The balance sheet will, of course never be equal but there's no doubt that some have decided enough is enough.

How many more millions need to die before you think it's enough, Bill?
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 05:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It's not a question of right and wrong, but one of prudence.

A good example would be the police. If the police are treating you badly, you might be right to stand up to them - but being right has never, ever un-kicked one's ass.

It's pretty clear that she made a poor decision, and as much as we want to rail against the unfairness of it, she's now paying the consequences.

Cycloptichorn
Prudence, eh? And it's pretty clear she made a poor decision to stand by Matt and Trey? I disagree. In your opinion; was it also pretty clear Larry Flint made a poor decision? (He was shot, after all). Was it also pretty clear that Alice Paul and Lucy Burns made a poor decision? (They were tortured, after all) How about Martin Luther King Jr.? Should he have kept his mouth shut out of prudence? I could go on and on; but I'm confident you could populate my list of examples for yourself. None of these people faired very well for defying the unknowable, unpredictable bullies did they? But laying down for bullies isn't always the most prudent thing to do either. Is it?

Martin Niemoeller wrote:
First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me

Molly spoke out... and she should be universally respected for it.
 

 
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