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Problems with Atheism

 
 
littlek
 
  2  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 05:46 pm
@ebrown p,
Must be both.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 05:52 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Too simple.


Precisely !. We are talking of the divisive nature of religion .
You only need to go into any public elementary school in the UK to find kids with "hang ups" about what they are "allowed" to learn, or eat, or do, or how they are to dress, which are are directly traceable to to religious indoctrination. And quite often, these kids are the least tolerant of others.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 05:54 pm
"If you are anti-religious and what to fight the good fight, then I suppose it matters. If you are non-religious, then why bother?"

Even non religious don't like being attacked, seemingly endlessly.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 05:54 pm
Oh look . . . Brown defines his terms to establish his thesis in advance of any discussion.

Can anyone say: "Beg the question?"
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 06:00 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
You are too simplistic. Many of us with unhappiness re religion have lived through antagonism..

I am not completely anti religion, although mostly, and strongly in some cases.

Why do we bother? Are you kidding? Religion permeates our national politics.


Ok, if this is too simplistic, then let's go deeper. I get it that many people are deeply upset with religion. I don't think an anti-religious position is not helpful; not even in national politics.

Do you agree that a god-based world view is as valid in a Democratic society as a non-god-based one?

Religion, including view on the existence and nature of God, is deeply tied up in culture and society for the simple reason that people need a narrative to explain things that can't be proven. This is true whether you believe in God or not-- people who don't believe in God still hold to basic principles that can't be proven. You have to, having basic ideas about questions that are beyond proof is part of being human.

I don't believe that taking God out of the picture would help. There will always be people with differing opinions on key questions.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 06:01 pm
@Setanta,
Well, he's on his own roll that most of us have paid no attention to.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 06:03 pm
@fresco,
Quote:

Precisely !. We are talking of the divisive nature of religion .


What does this mean-- are you saying that if everyone were an Atheist, everyone would be tolerant? If so, how would we ensure that everyone was an Atheist? Indoctrination?

((Of course, if everyone were a Bhuddist, you could say the same thing))

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 06:04 pm
@ebrown p,
Do you agree that a god-based world view is as valid in a Democratic society as a non-god-based one?
No. Hand me the data.

I didn't see a second question.


I'm not interested in talking anyone out of their beliefs in gods. Assuming they don't assail me with weapons, et al.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 06:09 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Do you agree that a god-based world view is as valid in a Democratic society as a non-god-based one?
No. Hand me the data.


This view that one world-view is more valid then another is a key problem. There are people who think the exact opposite (that a non-god-based world view is less valid).

My feeling is that Democratic societies work when you provide a Constitutional system for answering these questions and then accept the result-- all world-views are allowed a voice in public discussion and are given proportional representation.



(I just noticed the request for data-- but this is one of those questions of principle that can't be proved either way. What data could show what is valid in a Democratic society?)
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 06:15 pm
@ebrown p,
I'm famous to myself for not providing data for my opinions. You can read my posts or not.

I do agree with this -


I think this is a key problem. Of course there are people who think the exact opposite. My feeling is that Democratic societies work when you provide a Constitutional system for answering these questions and then accept the result.


0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 07:08 pm
It might not be as simple as stated, since I believe atheism, whether with a capital "A" or not, has historically been defined by those that do believe in a God. My point is that God may not be the Supreme Being concept that atheists do not believe in. God might be an intelligence that pervades the cosmos and may inhabit each one of us. The definition of atheism may have been too narrowly defined in the past, since in the past most people had been socialized to believe as one's community believed.

Plus, if there are multiple dimensions/universes, the concept of God can default to some very strange concepts. Sort of like trying to guess what extraterrestrials may believe in the way of a religion. We would only be guessing, and probably incorrectly.

0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 07:35 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

There is a difference between Atheism (which encompasses all three statements) and atheism (the simple non-obtrusive belief there is no god).

There is clearly an Anti-Religious form Atheism. You can see this on A2K threads that have the slightest connection to religion.

This thread is about Atheism, not atheism.



Ahhh so YOU are the authority on atheism and Atheism. At last! Hallelujah!

Just to clarify, gods you don't believe in, like Denwen the fiery serpent for example, are you atheistic or Atheistic towards them?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 07:52 pm
@ebrown p,
To edit myself, I have to go back and say I don't define atheism by some democratic or otherwise processed definition. Aggg, I didn't mean that.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 08:17 pm
ebrownp - Under what authority do you get to declare the difference between Atheism and atheism?

Your first mistake is asserting that atheism requires a relative position with respect to a religion. I believe in a natural universe, and that belief requires in no way me to disprove a god. Christians who are atheistic about Odin or Zeus do not require nor are defined by their belief in no Odin or No Zeus. Instead of addressing Atheists for what they do not believe, you should try and address us about what we do believe.

T
K
O
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 08:22 pm
@Eorl,
Quote:
Just to clarify, gods you don't believe in, like Denwen the fiery serpent for example, are you atheistic or Atheistic towards them?


You still don't udnerstand, Eorl (although I have told you a couple of times in two different threads). I don't believe in any gods. This would mean that I am atheistic (as a simple non-obtrusive belief there is no deity) toward Denwen and Jehovah and Zeus.

The believers in Denwen (although I think he was more of a devil then a god) had a long lasting, functioning society where they found meaning and made art and had families and saw beauty in the world around them and loved their kids.

In the important ways they were is no different then Christians, or Muslims or Atheists.

ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 08:27 pm
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
I believe in a natural universe, and that belief requires in no way me to disprove a god.


What does this mean? (I would think almost every religion believes in a natural universe). How does a belief in a natural universe matter in your life?


ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 08:43 pm
@ebrown p,
"I don't believe in any gods. This would mean that I am atheistic (as a simple non-obtrusive belief there is no deity)..."

This in itself shows you don't get it. Many, not all, of the rest of us, are saying we lack belief, are sans theism.

Just about none of us are interested in working up some kind of religion about there not being any gods.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 09:28 pm
In fact, this is precisely the point which theists don't get, or want to ignore for propagandistic purposes. Atheism is also irreligion, and any creed or belief set is completely antithetical. It makes religionists nervous because it inferentially casts them in the light of fanatics. They want to brand atheists as religionists in another guise so as to suggest that belief such as their own is the natural condition of man, rather than the codified fanaticism which it really is.
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 09:58 pm
Exactly! (Osso and Set).

Are you (ebp) completely at ease with all the limits placed on your life by religions to which you don't subscribe? Why? Would you be just as happy with a system of strict Sharia Law? Or would you, at that point, feel obliged to capitalize you "A"theism?
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 10:08 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
I believe in a natural universe, and that belief requires in no way me to disprove a god.


What does this mean? (I would think almost every religion believes in a natural universe). How does a belief in a natural universe matter in your life?

No. Almost every religion believes in a supernatural universe.

A belief that all things have a natural origin matters in life because it means we can take our experiences and extrapolate real value for the future from them.

In other words...

If we fall off the bike in a supernatural universe, we must speculate if falling off the bike was an orchestrated event set in place by a governing being or beings. It's the whole wasting time arguing over how many angels can fit on a point of a pin.

If we fall off the bike in a natural universe, we examine the tires, brakes, we review what we were doing. We don't search for some 3rd party intervention.

In both case we can walk away still not knowing why we crashed out bike, but in the natural universe we at least are ONLY dealing with variables that we know are real.

As I have told people when discussing prayer: I've found that praying to the fire hydrant in my alley gives me about the same result as any god I've ever tried to pray to. In the end, at least I can demonstrate that the fire hydrant is real.

T
K
O
 

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